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Rhinox shields are beyond reason

ManthroManthro Posts: 2,752
edited August 2017 in General Discussion
Noticed in arena, after the update, that Rhinox's shields deal shock damage on any critical melee hit, and sometimes even on non Crits.

Was this intentional? I can tell you that scouts are not at an "advantage" when fighting him if this is the case.

If anything, he is geared to mow down scouts. You need to rethink how this Sig ability triggers, kabam.

There needs to be a way to remove his shields with ranged attacks if his Sig is intended to be this way. I would adjust his shields to lose a charge for each ranged attack that is not blocked.

At least this would provide a strategy in how to approach him. As it stands, he's just a menace, almost worse than Bonecrusher.

I fought him with prowl, took 5 shock charges on a 5 hit melee combo, and because he was a 2100pi rhinox vs my 1200pi prowl, those 5 shock stacks took out 3/4 of my health bar.

Ridiculous
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Comments

  • Drake6401Drake6401 Posts: 321
    Personally, I think that bot power difference is doing it since it works from a percentage of Rinox's attack stat. I haven't had any issues beyond reasonable effects against it. It may had been a string of bad luck for you, because I don't typically see it pass 3. Each shield has it's own random chance and it apparently rang off every one in your case. Whether it's chance increases with ability level, I can't say.

    If a nerf is in order, perhaps an idea that heavy melee attacks break two, but at the same risk of breaking one. Heavy ranged attacks could break one.
  • ManthroManthro Posts: 2,752
    Yes, I know the DoT effect is tied to base attack damage. The problem is when facing mandatory damage from bots like rhinox and BC in AM. They can single handedly wipe out your entire AM squad.

    Dancing around only shooting ranged attacks is not a realistic option. If you try that at high difficulty, you'll either time out or the AI will violate you.
  • TrailfireTrailfire Posts: 590
    Yep. The number of times I've fought flawlessly against Rhinox with WB on full health, and not hit him with shields up with anything other than a light attack, and still come out nearly dead... damn.

    Rhinox main class advantage is def against scouts, not demo (who do mainly ranged advantage and so are immune to his shield explosions.

    Maybe brawlers can beat him? Idk.
  • DirculesDircules Posts: 509
    My best successes against Rhinox have been with Ironhide. Screw class advantages on this dude.
  • MustangjonMustangjon Posts: 1,146
    Haven't fought him myself but is this possibly new masteries causing your increase?
  • TrailfireTrailfire Posts: 590
    Mustangjon wrote: »
    Haven't fought him myself but is this possibly new masteries causing your increase?

    Not for me. My complaints mostly pre-date 3.0, I just haven't got around to voicing them before
  • ManthroManthro Posts: 2,752
    Mustangjon wrote: »
    Haven't fought him myself but is this possibly new masteries causing your increase?

    No, this has been a problem for a while. I believe even Bubian opened a thread about it once.. or maybe it was Amano
  • SynthwaveSynthwave Posts: 1,012
    Especially if you've gone crit-heavy on masteries, that won't be doing you any favors.
  • tekkn1kaltekkn1kal Posts: 430
    The only problem with it is that scouts have the hardest time with him.... but personally I think it is a fun mechanic and I enjoy having to work around it.

    Just don't take scouts to face him. Eventually maybe they'll change it to make scouts better against him somehow.
  • ManthroManthro Posts: 2,752
    tekkn1kal wrote: »
    The only problem with it is that scouts have the hardest time with him.... but personally I think it is a fun mechanic and I enjoy having to work around it.

    Just don't take scouts to face him. Eventually maybe they'll change it to make scouts better against him somehow.

    The thing is, there isn't a way to work around it. You can't remove shields without melee strikes. And the Sig seems completely random.

    Just like BC has two counters to his bleed, rhinox needs some kind of mechanic to actually work around his shields.

    This is why I suggested he lose a shield charge with every unblocked basic ranged or heavy ranged, so you can actually run a strategy against him instead of just rolling the dice.
  • tekkn1kaltekkn1kal Posts: 430
    edited August 2017
    Not sure what you mean, that's exactly how you remove them, with melee strikes. You just can't take Prowl. Prowl, Windblade, OG, anyone with spikey damage does poorly against him. Doesn't even need to be a crit. There is simply a threshold of damage. If you stay under the threshold then it just removes the shield. If you exceed the threshold, the shield bursts and causes shock damage.

    That said, the smart choice are bots with multiple small hits like Bee/SS/Mirage. Those guys tear his shields down with ease, with little concern about exploding them, and taking multiple shields off per "attack" in your combo. That's counter number 1. There are still plenty of bots that do fine against him outside those guys, but those guys destroy Rhinox.

    Second counter is you can use anyone, including WB/Prowl etc, but you need to hit him when his block is up. Obviously this is more risky, but this would be more like if you got stuck having to fight him in a bad arena draw.

    The other trick to Rhinox, is not tearing down all of his shields until you are ready to dump damage on him. Leave the 1 shield on him, bait him to remove power, etc. Then, when you're ready, lead in with a combo to strip that last shield, dump special, and come back in for some more hits before his shields return.
  • BubianBubian Posts: 82
    Manthro wrote: »
    Noticed in arena, after the update, that Rhinox's shields deal shock damage on any critical melee hit, and sometimes even on non Crits.

    Was this intentional? I can tell you that scouts are not at an "advantage" when fighting him if this is the case.

    If anything, he is geared to mow down scouts. You need to rethink how this Sig ability triggers, kabam.

    There needs to be a way to remove his shields with ranged attacks if his Sig is intended to be this way. I would adjust his shields to lose a charge for each ranged attack that is not blocked.

    At least this would provide a strategy in how to approach him. As it stands, he's just a menace, almost worse than Bonecrusher.

    I fought him with prowl, took 5 shock charges on a 5 hit melee combo, and because he was a 2100pi rhinox vs my 1200pi prowl, those 5 shock stacks took out 3/4 of my health bar.

    Ridiculous
    I've been saying this for ages. Rhinox kills me in am even if I fight him perfectly.
  • BubianBubian Posts: 82
    o7f3al2g56c7.jpg
    Here's a pic
  • tekkn1kaltekkn1kal Posts: 430
    But you didn't fight him perfectly if you burst his shields. That would be like saying, "I fought Ratchet perfectly, but I timed out because I kept letting him heal."

    He has a pretty simple mechanic that you have to fight around. If you blindly just beat him up, it doesn't matter if you don't get hit, you're going to end up dead... that is the whole mechanic. They expect you to 1) bring the right bot 2) systematically strip his shields 3) profit.

    The biggest problem here is class advantage only makes the problem worse, because you end up exceeding the threshold of his shields even on light hits and cause shock. But, outside of that one factor, the general mechanic of Rhinox's shields just make him an interesting bot to fight against, instead of just being a straightforward "go in and smash him".
  • BubianBubian Posts: 82
    You completely missed the point. A scout is supposed to have advantage. They get major attack buffs fighting Techs. Maybe scouts should be resistant to rhinox' sig or shouldn't proc. his debuff as much as he does. Why should I dumb down how I attack? Rhinox' sig is way over powered. He shouldn't be able to kill me without landing a single hit, let alone me hitting him 5 times can take down 7k of my own hp.
  • ManthroManthro Posts: 2,752
    Bubian wrote: »
    You completely missed the point. A scout is supposed to have advantage. They get major attack buffs fighting Techs. Maybe scouts should be resistant to rhinox' sig or shouldn't proc. his debuff as much as he does. Why should I dumb down how I attack? Rhinox' sig is way over powered. He shouldn't be able to kill me without landing a single hit, let alone me hitting him 5 times can take down 7k of my own hp.

    This is exactly the problem with defensive DoT skills I have been detailing for months.

    BC and Rhinox can kill you without touching you, and they can do it FAST.

    No bot should be able to do that. Period.
  • tekkn1kaltekkn1kal Posts: 430
    Bubian wrote: »
    You completely missed the point. A scout is supposed to have advantage. They get major attack buffs fighting Techs. Maybe scouts should be resistant to rhinox' sig or shouldn't proc. his debuff as much as he does. Why should I dumb down how I attack? Rhinox' sig is way over powered. He shouldn't be able to kill me without landing a single hit, let alone me hitting him 5 times can take down 7k of my own hp.

    I didn't miss the point, though. I specifically noted the class advantage point and completely agreed with you there :)


    Anyways, that being said, I actually need to eat crow, because it is very clear that the new masteries have made every single bot prone to exploding Rhinox's shields with the right mastery combination.

    Kabam -- This specifically is a huge issue. Courage alone seems to be plenty to make it so that any bot that goes under 50% health WILL explode Rhinox's shields. Would it be possible for Rhinox's shield threshold be adjusted, at the very least, to compensate for the damage increase that all masteries will present?
  • KillMasterCKillMasterC Posts: 3,105
    tekkn1kal wrote: »
    Kabam -- This specifically is a huge issue. Courage alone seems to be plenty to make it so that any bot that goes under 50% health WILL explode Rhinox's shields. Would it be possible for Rhinox's shield threshold be adjusted, at the very least, to compensate for the damage increase that all masteries will present?

    I think they'll add a new mastery which recovers life when shocked.
  • Hogz3Hogz3 Posts: 50
    I havent exactly had the problem with rhinox yet cause i havent fought him since 3.0 took effect but bee usually does well against him if you dont build up to many atk buffs from bees heavy. Im finding bonecrusher to be more of a problem for me since he can bleed you when you crit him. Especially with the addition of masteries that boost crit and crit dmg it seems his bleeds are constant. I know a simple solution would be to not invest into crit rate but to do that for one bot seems ridiculous. I think changing bc with the update is something to be looked at. Id suggest removing bleeds on crits towards him and upping the % he can bleed on normal melee atks or reduce the % he has to proc a bleed when struck with a crit
  • tekkn1kal wrote: »
    Kabam -- This specifically is a huge issue. Courage alone seems to be plenty to make it so that any bot that goes under 50% health WILL explode Rhinox's shields. Would it be possible for Rhinox's shield threshold be adjusted, at the very least, to compensate for the damage increase that all masteries will present?

    I think they'll add a new mastery which recovers life when shocked.

    an expensive one at that...
  • RhinoxRhinox Posts: 20
    edited August 2017
    If my shield removed by RANGED attack, i'll be almost useless againts Demolition bots coz all Demolition use ranged atk as Special, and most of them are ranged multiple shoot. So technically i'll easily become unprotected like Rachet but minus healing factor. Don't make me broken will ya :neutral:
  • TotherkinsTotherkins Posts: 299
    Rhinox is easy with mirage ;)
  • AAGZ0921AAGZ0921 Posts: 194
    Just use a maxed out 3 or 4* Brawler, I use Grindor on him and Rhinox ends up like a little girl.
  • MustangjonMustangjon Posts: 1,146
    I think point this is derailing is rhinox is a tech bot... suppose to be beaten by scout bots
  • SynthwaveSynthwave Posts: 1,012
    edited July 2018
    Just wanna bring this up again, as I don't think that the answer of 50% less likely for Scouts to induce shock is the solution to this problem; especially when the Rhinox you are facing has a PI of 15k+.

    The problem (and I think Kabam knows this, since he's an AM miniboss) is that Rhinox's sig right now is designed to be strictly for AI opponents and not for players. I mean, think about it. Who in this game plays Rhinox by dropping their guard, letting Windblade charge in and put 3 stacks of bleed on them and then laugh's triumphantly as they bleed out that they got the better of her because she got 1 or 2 stacks of low level shock damage? Nobody. They're probably more mad that they got hit than to pay any attention to how much shock they gave the opponent (if any).

    So the solution here doesn't lie in percentages of who is resistant to his shocks but in changing the sig itself. The first correction made to his sig should've been one that made it so the sig actually benefited the player, not a correction that makes something that was 100% sucky to 50% less sucky.

    Because that's the problem with Rhinox's sig. It's totally useless in the hands of players (especially when using Rhinox at high level content where you can die in less than a dozen hits) but it's absolutely devastating in the hands of the AI because as the PI of Rhinox increases, so does his shock damage. I've faced him at a level where he deals out 300+ DPS worth of shock damage to my bots. And remember that's damage you're taking not because you got hit but because you're the one hitting him. Does that make any sense at all? To punish players for doing something right?

    It's one thing if you're going to do the whole Bonecrusher vs. Grimlock/Primal/MV1 mechanic; that makes sense because you've still given the brawlers class advantage and a way to mitigate the bleed damage BC deals. What do the scouts (or 70% of the other bots on the roster) have against Rhinox if they trigger his shock? Nothing. They have nothing to stop that shock damage from happening (unless you want to be Cheetor each and every time and bring all BW bots). Even Bee takes shock damage if he doesn't crit to break his shield.

    I'm sorry but that's an incredible imbalance in my opinion and it makes versions of him like AM miniboss Rhinox a completely unfair murder machine who just has to stand there and do nothing to kill you while you try and hit him and just hope your luck holds out that you don't induce shock. That's absurd.

    Give him a new sig. Make it something a player will feel like they didn't just waste a crystal awakening him (because that's how each and every player feels about his sig right now; it's worthless for players). It could still be a defensive-oriented sig, but make it something that won't also punish players with HP loss if they trigger it. An example could be:

    SHIELD CAPACITOR

    "When Rhinox is hit with a melee attack he has an X% chance to regain a lost shield (max 6) and Power Drain X% of power over X seconds. If Rhinox regains all 6 shields back, he induces power lock in the opponent for X seconds."


    Something that won't punish players with HP loss for doing what the game is even telling them to do in the tutorial (KO the other bot).

    Another more offense-oriented route that would be balanced for both players and AI could be something like this:

    SHIELD SHUNT

    Rhinox re-directs all the remaining power from his shields to his chain guns. Rhinox gains X% ranged damage and X% chance to bleed for every active shield re-directed to his guns for X seconds. Shield buffs recharge in 11 seconds. (Hold down block for 3 seconds to redistribue any shields currently active to Rhinox's chain guns).


    Just anything besides what he has now. It's lame for players to use and incredibly unfair and frustrating for players to face.

    @Kabam Miike @Kabam Vydious have you tried playing against the AM miniboss Rhinox at the levels the top alliances play him at while not using Grimlock or all BW bot synergy? If not, you should jump in there and give it a shot and you'll see exactly what everyone is frustrated about. Then please consider some more reasonable alternatives. Thanks!
  • ManthroManthro Posts: 2,752
    edited July 2018
    While his Sig isn't the greatest from a player perspective, the nerf to it never should have happened the way it did. There was a far better solution than omitting masteries and abilities from triggering the Sig.

    Besides, now KB is a hard counter to Rhinox (or any shock bot for that matter)

    Any beast wars bot running beast synergy is a hard counter to Rhinox

    Grimlock is also a hard counter.


    There are far more options to combat Rhinox than there used to be. His Sig in the CURRENT meta is fine if they would just un-nerf his shields. We've been dealing with shock block in AM for weeks now, it hasn't been a problem, so Rhinox Sig should be just fine to finally set free as well.


    Fighting BC is no different, he triggers bleeds at a far higher rate than Rhinox shields ever did in the first place, and yet that passive ability was never nerfed even a little bit.

    Until Primal there was only really ever one true counter to BC (MV1) with IH being somewhat viable as long as you never ate a special or heavy.

    Take the kid gloves off with Rhinox. Simple solution to his Sig is to make his shields not explode when his block is attacked, and allow them to shock the way they used to. Give players the ability to employ a tactic against him.

    When his Sig was nerfed to omit masteries AND bot abilities that increased attack/Crit rate, it was a huge overcorrection that did not need to happen.


  • LaprasLapras Posts: 258
    edited July 2018
    Grimlock is not a viable counter to Rhinox. As he purifies the shock he gains attacks buffs which in turns cause you to deal more damage and trigger more shock debuffs.

    Also, I don’t think consider kickback a viable counter to Rhinox either. You need to heavy to consume the shock, but if you land a heavy on Rhinox you are going to trigger his sig and get hit with more shock. If you don’t land it you are going to get countered. This also applies to BW to some extent, especially Primal who can trigger his sig even tho his ranged is a heavy.

    The only true hard counter is a really high sig Starscream who can simply nullify his shield debuffs.
  • BobdolleBobdolle Posts: 34
    Actually if you heavy with kickback into the shield, it gets purified before the damage comes out.
  • SparkShredderSparkShredder Posts: 1,300
    I usually remove shield by attacking in his blocks,, after five hit combo,, left over shield can easily be removed by a single successful hit..
    high sign ratchet and RHINOX are nightmares for Prowl
  • SynthwaveSynthwave Posts: 1,012
    Hitting into a block at higher levels of difficulty is not a suitable option. At lower difficulties they let you back off after you hit into a block; that's not the case with higher levels. They will hit you right after you finish your last hit into the block.
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