AI using unfair abilities

I've noticed several bots I've gone up against being able to evade after being hot on the first hit of a special, as well as being able to trigger sp3 while in the middle of a combo.
This is not cool. AI should not have special advantages that bots just don't have. I was just fighting a maxed 3* Grindor during a raid. I was in the middle of a combo when he triggered his sp3...so much so the sound effect of my swords hitting him we're still playing during the Grindor animation. There have been complaints about this before with Arcee and Sideswipe and the answer was "they're supposed to do that"
If that's the case why can't I make MY Arcee and Sideswipe do it then?
Answers? Fixes?
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Comments

  • KillMasterCKillMasterC Posts: 1,392
    edited September 2017
    As for the evasion from specials, they'll fix the description saying they CAN do this. So nothing will be changed in-game. And FYI, my Arcee can evade out even if she's hit by Rhinox's S2 because hey, the last hit counts as a range attack. My Arcee also transforms and sidesteps a ranged attack during heavy animation.

    For "AI doing special when hitting by a combo", maybe it's not a bug. Because if you a one frame late in your normal combo, AI can enter neutral state and do whatever they want. AI's combo is often (intentionally?) flawed and gives you additional time to backstep during blocking. Although we humans register combos better than AI, we can make mistakes sometimes.
  • I actually had a Grindor getting hit by ranged shots last night go into his s3 and win the fight...he went into the special AS he was being hit. That very last bullet is what would have won me the match.
  • The AI has the same rules we do, it just sometimes looks very close. But at a software level, it can't be otherwise. It's just part of the game you gotta get used to and play around. Can't expect to win every fight
  • KillMasterCKillMasterC Posts: 1,392
    edited September 2017
    Yet I agree AI can sometimes to weird things, especially with Motormaster's unblockable. He can fire a dash attack immediately after he misses a light attack on me. I can't do this.
  • The AI has slight cheats, mostly in the form of reduced start-up/cool down on attacks and movement, but with the computer's frame perfect timing it can be annoying when it pulls off stunts that no human is capable of. MM is especially annoying, I can dodge his dash-in and he's already shoved his sword through my face on a follow-up attack by the time I'm out of the dodge animation. Windblade and Grindor can backstep in the middle of attacks, although at least they leave a cool afterimage so that's neat.
    The short answer to the OP is that the AI was given some buffs to counter having to face human intelligence, although they only occasionally result in a stolen fight.
  • Lol. Reminds me of when I was 6 and I used to say "the computer's cheating" when something didn't go my way in a game

  • Trailfire wrote: »
    Lol. Reminds me of when I was 6 and I used to say "the computer's cheating" when something didn't go my way in a game

    Watch gameplay, it actually is. Not by much, just a few frames at a time, and I admit it needs some advantages vs a human, but Kabam has said that the bots can't do anything human can't, and that is demonstrably false.
  • CandKane wrote: »
    Trailfire wrote: »
    Lol. Reminds me of when I was 6 and I used to say "the computer's cheating" when something didn't go my way in a game

    Watch gameplay, it actually is. Not by much, just a few frames at a time, and I admit it needs some advantages vs a human, but Kabam has said that the bots can't do anything human can't, and that is demonstrably false.

    A lot of the things they say are demonstrably false ("Crystals don't look at your account..."). And a lot of the things they say are not demonstrably false, but still probably false. Some things are actually true. Just can't take the word of them on the forum anymore which is really sad.
  • daniduccidaniducci Posts: 3
    First off, its a well known proven fact that games are programmed for the AI to cheat. This has been documented since the 80s. The person above who says the AI has the same rules as we do, and the software can't be otherwise is, to be blunt, a fool. Its a piece of cake to code a game so the AI has advantages. In fact, every game gives the AI cheating abilities to overcome human skill.

    Just look at Soundwave. My awakened Soundwave can't gain power until I use a heavy attack, and then is power locked at the second special. The AI Soundwave gains power immediately, even if it never uses a heavy attack, and suffers no power lock. There are a million other ways the game is designed to cheat us, and they are blatantly obvious, and utterly offensive. They are coded into the game purposefully. They're easy to recognize.
  • KillMasterCKillMasterC Posts: 1,392
    @daniducci Although I agree with your fight paragraph, your second one... well, you must have come across Robot Resource Mod.
  • Darm0kDarm0k Posts: 841
    Also, Soundwave will gain power when hit. If you’re beating up the computer Soundwave, its power will be building up even if you weren’t hit with a heavy attack.
  • StreetFighterStreetFighter Posts: 165
    edited January 2
    DrShotgun wrote: »
    I've noticed several bots I've gone up against being able to evade after being hot on the first hit of a special, as well as being able to trigger sp3 while in the middle of a combo.

    @Kabam Miike Is that part true or not? Players must know.

    I noticed recent changes. After I hit SP and my bot didn't successfully made a hit, other bot can still do hits and maybe even use SP. Also if in a middle of my combo enemy gets unstoppable, he can easily ignore my combo. But it looks like I can do the same thing, so it looks fair to me.
  • xxerexxxxerexx Posts: 96
    Some of the weird behaviors in raid i suspect are bugs/interactions with specific mods. I.e. I've had sideswipe initiate a s2 in the middle of a combo (no evade text) hitting him, but I've only had it happen with one mod (So far).

    However I have seen in arenas with ai vs ai what looks like out right cheating on the opponents side.

    Things like backstepping during a s1/2 and blocking with no evade text or bots that dont have evade skills.

    I've been watching ai vs ai in the arena a lot lately and I don't see any specific patterns, there's still randomness in the same (i.e. same matchups on the same day) fights when they're repeated.
  • Raptor22Raptor22 Posts: 64
    I don't know if the right term to call is "cheating" but I think it more as, the AI (as you progress to harder levels in Raids, Arenas, or AMs) is just more responsive to your input than lower levels.

    For example; at lower levels, it's responsiveness to block is much more lethargic than higher levels. At higher levels, it's harder for you to "catch the AI sleeping"... whereas it's very quick to respond to your actions.

    There was one fight where the AI had a Special 2 ready to use and I was trying to bait it to use it (while holding down block)... the instant (like literally exact moment) that I gambled and lifted my finger off the block to move in order to bait it, it immediately closed in and executed the special. I thought I was quick enough to recover and hit the block again but it was too late.

    So... in essence, is it "cheating"? Again, I don't know if that's the right term to use, but rather, digital input of the AI is simply much faster than the human fingers to act and respond at high levels.

    It seems to use every legit advantage available as quick as possible at high levels.

    It's frustrating, I will admit that.
  • Raptor22 wrote: »
    I don't know if the right term to call is "cheating" but I think it more as, the AI (as you progress to harder levels in Raids, Arenas, or AMs) is just more responsive to your input than lower levels.

    For example; at lower levels, it's responsiveness to block is much more lethargic than higher levels. At higher levels, it's harder for you to "catch the AI sleeping"... whereas it's very quick to respond to your actions.

    There was one fight where the AI had a Special 2 ready to use and I was trying to bait it to use it (while holding down block)... the instant (like literally exact moment) that I gambled and lifted my finger off the block to move in order to bait it, it immediately closed in and executed the special. I thought I was quick enough to recover and hit the block again but it was too late.

    So... in essence, is it "cheating"? Again, I don't know if that's the right term to use, but rather, digital input of the AI is simply much faster than the human fingers to act and respond at high levels.

    It seems to use every legit advantage available as quick as possible at high levels.

    It's frustrating, I will admit that.

    The guy made specific examples, I don't see it related to the subject.
  • Darm0kDarm0k Posts: 841
    I've just accepted that the AI can do things us players can't. Kind of like in Starcraft 1 where the computer knew exactly where your base was located while you had to search them out. Doesn't mean I like it -- especially when Prime launches a sp2 in the middle of a combo in an AM. Or one of the sharkticons. Frickin' sharkticon.

    I wonder if it's a lag thing where your input is a little delayed giving the AI a chance to counter.
  • Stitch626Stitch626 Posts: 286
    The AI's ability to avoid your melee and ranged attacks can get pretty comical at times, and makes me feel as though im playing against an Agent Smith sometimes.

    Watching UM (backstep) dodge 6-7 melee attacks in a row like its nothing, while cornered, is a great example of times when it feels like the AI is working through an algorithm that says you are not allowed to do damage to this bot until it does some damage to you first.
  • ManthroManthro Posts: 2,070
    edited January 3
    Stitch626 wrote: »
    The AI's ability to avoid your melee and ranged attacks can get pretty comical at times, and makes me feel as though im playing against an Agent Smith sometimes.

    Watching UM (backstep) dodge 6-7 melee attacks in a row like its nothing, while cornered, is a great example of times when it feels like the AI is working through an algorithm that says you are not allowed to do damage to this bot until it does some damage to you first.

    I used to hate that too.. until I learned how to do it myself. I'll sit on the wall of the arena and backstep BC s2 with good timing, and watch him whiff on all three hits, for example.

    Once you have the confidence and timing down, you feel like you are never in danger vs the AI
  • TerminalTerminal Posts: 789
    edited January 3
    Dodging adds a great nuance to the gameplay to reward skill, I think it's a great addition.

    That being said, the ai godlike frame perfect long string of back steps become tedious.

    Also, it's hard for us humans to dodge when we get constant lag and freezes.

    A great man once said, 'death by lag vs waspinator is not fun'.

    Sometimes there's no choice but to block and take damage because it might freeze when you backstep or sidestep and end up dead.

    So I think they could tone it down a bit on the AI backsteps.
  • that1guythat1guy Posts: 231
    Stitch626 wrote: »
    The AI's ability to avoid your melee and ranged attacks can get pretty comical at times, and makes me feel as though im playing against an Agent Smith sometimes.

    Watching UM (backstep) dodge 6-7 melee attacks in a row like its nothing, while cornered, is a great example of times when it feels like the AI is working through an algorithm that says you are not allowed to do damage to this bot until it does some damage to you first.

    I seriously hate going up against a Bumblbee in any expert missions, it's just a nightmare. The expert gauntlet almost made me want to throw my phone against the wall.
  • ManthroManthro Posts: 2,070
    Terminal wrote: »
    A great man once said, 'death by lag vs waspinator is not fun'.

    Haha, damn that spotlight sucked at the time.
  • TrailfireTrailfire Posts: 590
    daniducci wrote: »
    First off, its a well known proven fact that games are programmed for the AI to cheat. This has been documented since the 80s. The person above who says the AI has the same rules as we do, and the software can't be otherwise is, to be blunt, a fool. Its a piece of cake to code a game so the AI has advantages. In fact, every game gives the AI cheating abilities to overcome human skill.

    Just look at Soundwave. My awakened Soundwave can't gain power until I use a heavy attack, and then is power locked at the second special. The AI Soundwave gains power immediately, even if it never uses a heavy attack, and suffers no power lock. There are a million other ways the game is designed to cheat us, and they are blatantly obvious, and utterly offensive. They are coded into the game purposefully. They're easy to recognize.

    I don't know why you wanted to bring up a 3 month old post, but there it is. Ad hominem aside, software is literally a set of rules. It *has* to obey them. Just because you don't know what the rules are doesn't mean the AI is "cheating". What's going on, is that you don't know how the game works - that's quite different

    People have already explained why your example about SW is a perfect demonstration of confusing ignorance of the rules for "cheating" (what you described SW doing is exactly what SW is supposed to do, and exactly what he does if you're controlling him)

    Most of the other comments sounds like people just aren't timing their hits well enough. I agree it can be tricky to get used to, and it isn't exactly the same as MCOC, but that doesn't mean there's "cheating" going on, it means if you're not careful, you can leave small gaps where an opponent can respond by either blocking, dashing back or sideways, activating a special or or launching an attack. You can also do that. The AI often leaves visually obvious gaps in its combo and I routinely intercept combos part way through

    This whole conversation is either a case of "players don't know the rules" or "players haven't practiced enough". I promise you that none of the things mentioned happens unless you allow it to happen (or they're a particular skill that enables it), and that you can also do them all if your opponent makes an equivalent mistake. The more you practice the more you'll see what the errors are that can be exploited in both directions and the fewer errors you'll make

    The lag/freezing is a different matter. It usually begins slowly and then works itself into a fit, so if you notice a few small lags, it's a good idea to let your phone cool down for a while - it's pretty much always related to over heating in my experience

    The "frame perfect" stuff... I don't understand why anyone thinks that's unfair. It can be annoying, sure, but it's pretty clearly fair. Raptor explained it fairly well I think

    @Stitch626, if the opponent is onto your moves, change them up! Don't maintain a combo if the opponent is successfully back stepping, you're just asking to eat the counterpunch in the face. If you don't land the first blow, back off straight away and try to set up the next combo. Often you have to actually create an opening, because the AI usually responds to you. If you're shooting a lot, they often shoot a lot and intercept your ranged attacks. If you're doing heavies a lot, they start dodging a lot. It's totally possible to create openings against any bot (granted, some are harder than others)
  • StreetFighterStreetFighter Posts: 165
    edited January 3
    @Trailfire lol

    It was a little tough explanation, but you got to give him credit for writing it down. He is right. It doesn't look like cheating at all, because it goes both ways. Kabam improves fights very often lately. It makes AI better and it also makes our controls more flexible and we can do better moves. You guys asked the question and he gave you direct answer. I didn't read everything, but from overview it sounds about right.
  • DirculesDircules Posts: 467
    The higher the bot the better their reactions. Keeps you improving. So as you progress and suddenly bots start actually not just taking your heavies in the face, it can feel unfair, but you just need to step it up. If AI could and would do these unfair things, we wouldn’t be able to complete AM runs on the highest level without items. Every time I wipe out I know exactly what it was and what I should have done differently. I think it’s great. Feels good when it finally ‘clicks’. The worst nightmare is dodging bots like Bumblebees, Arcee and to some extent Barricade and Sideswipe. You can never be sure your next charge after finding an opening is going to hit. But even those can be done, just more tedious. And yes Bee at the end of expert Bee mission was a disaster. I only won because my Ironhide got pummeled to S3 and critter for almost 30k ending the yellow bastard.
  • Booster_BlueBooster_Blue Posts: 522
    I find it comical that AI can immediately melee attack after firing off a missed heavy. I have tried to replicate that to epic fail.
  • KillMasterCKillMasterC Posts: 1,392
    I find it comical that AI can immediately melee attack after firing off a missed heavy. I have tried to replicate that to epic fail.

    Yes. Sometimes when Grindor fires his missile at you at close range, you either take the missile, or sidestep and take his instant melee. I can do this with Barricade myself, not the others.
  • Stitch626 wrote: »
    The AI's ability to avoid your melee and ranged attacks can get pretty comical at times, and makes me feel as though im playing against an Agent Smith sometimes.

    Watching UM (backstep) dodge 6-7 melee attacks in a row like its nothing, while cornered, is a great example of times when it feels like the AI is working through an algorithm that says you are not allowed to do damage to this bot until it does some damage to you first.

    Yes I think there is indeed a fight algorithm, difference is clear to see when compared to begining of a fight to the end of a fight, AI seem to be at lower level at begin and tuned to 11 when close to dying. Like, (do x amount of damage before dying, by any means)

    I also believe there are differnt AI levels, this is clear in Arena, when auto fight with equal power bots at lower streak, 90% player win, then at streak 50, the auto fight winning chance for player with equal bots is less than 50%. I think this is reasonable to use in arena however still proofs they coded AI in a way that use different AI level based on other parameters before or during fight
  • CandKaneCandKane Posts: 676
    99% of all fights in any mode, if I get the opponent down to 15% or so of health without KO I back off and dodge, because suddenly I'm fighting the lovechild of Chuck Norris and Master Chief. And there's been plenty of times the AI went off and outright murdered one bot, only to become too stupid to walk straight once I reloaded the fight with a second bot (or used a revive, which I suspect is the true goal here).
  • KillMasterCKillMasterC Posts: 1,392
    Passing certain streak, it's the Autofight AI which gets tuned down. My bots just get lazy and don't even punish a blocked 5 combo or blocked special. Even melee specialist like Windblade begins to trade range shots (and fails most of the time).
  • There are literally frames of animation I've noticed the AI tends to bypass when dodging/sidestepping away from you, to attack you instantly. Even when it has you stun locked in a combo, you try to perform the exact same combo on it, automatic block right in the middle of it.
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