Tantrum adjustment suggestion

ManthroManthro Posts: 2,733
edited July 2018 in General Discussion
So, after playing with Tantrum for a bit, I have a subtle but significant suggestion on how to adjust him to make him more viable.

The payoff for how you have to play him is not that great. At high level, you expose yourself far too much to make him a truly viable bot for end game content.

I would alter his mechanics on the following way:

1) keep the mechanics for how you earn melee buffs the same, DO NOT CHANGE IT.

2) instead of losing melee buffs for backstepping (which is insanely punishing) make it so you must maintain a combo meter instead, much like drift.

3) your combo meter stays intact if you are unstoppable, allowing you to absorb hits and retain buffs.

4) 3 cumulative backsteps without connecting with a melee hit also results in losing melee buffs.

That's it. It would make him instantly viable, and reward skilled players using him. As it stands, his biggest weakness is the fact that you cannot avoid special attacks without losing the buffs you work so hard to obtain.

Comments

  • ManthroManthro Posts: 2,733
    There are a couple other things which would also help his play style....


    1) increased block proficiency +8% per melee buff.

    2) +1.5% power rate for Tantrum on ALL attacks (blocked or not, incoming and outgoing) per melee buff.

    You created a very interesting bot with a unique playstyle, but not enough thought went into damage mitigation considering the exposure you put yourself through.
  • SwampratsSwamprats Posts: 28
    I agree ive had some problems with that manthro i am an evadey person and i HATE tantrum
  • dtorreskaterdtorreskater Posts: 118
    TOTALLY agree here, back stepping is a very important part of my and obviously many players playstyle. I agree you can't hold onto the melee buffs forever but losing them on one back step can mitigate a lot of playtime and building throughout a longer battle.
  • ButtehrsButtehrs Posts: 571
    But according to his sig ability dont you keep the melee buffs even if you backstop? If so then that's your problem. Gotta dupe him.
  • ButtehrsButtehrs Posts: 571
    Nvm it's when he goes unstoppable he doesnt loose buffs. Still there is a way to not lose them.
  • ManthroManthro Posts: 2,733
    Buttehrs wrote: »
    Nvm it's when he goes unstoppable he doesnt loose buffs. Still there is a way to not lose them.

    Try it at high level content. See how well you do.
  • Darm0kDarm0k Posts: 1,964
    Buttehrs wrote: »
    Nvm it's when he goes unstoppable he doesnt loose buffs. Still there is a way to not lose them.

    1.5 seconds is a long time to wait for the unstoppable in the middle of a fight. And then there’s the cooldown period after the unstoppable runs out.
  • ButtehrsButtehrs Posts: 571
    Then knowing kabam all they'll do is increase the time of unstoppable and reduce the cooldown slightly lol
  • Darm0kDarm0k Posts: 1,964
    Couple other options:

    -instead of losing all the melee buffs instantly on backstep, it starts a countdown timer before removing them. The timer can be stopped by doing another dash attack (which will still add one more melee buff)

    -on backstep, you lose 1 melee buff or maybe better if it’s for every two back steps.
  • KillMasterCKillMasterC Posts: 2,787
    Darm0k wrote: »

    -on backstep, you lose 1 melee buff or maybe better if it’s for every two back steps.
    good idea. In fact my enemies are so unforgivable that they fire a (melee) heavy when they see me start charging, leaving me with no choice

  • DaveJLDaveJL Posts: 1,690
    Darm0k wrote: »
    Couple other options:

    -instead of losing all the melee buffs instantly on backstep, it starts a countdown timer before removing them. The timer can be stopped by doing another dash attack (which will still add one more melee buff)

    -on backstep, you lose 1 melee buff or maybe better if it’s for every two back steps.

    This is exactly what I suggested to Manthro when he showed me this thread.

    As it stands, my 3/30 5* Tantrum is viable for game mode difficulty up to but not including expert 3.2 easy path. At this point, it isn't viable because the AI is too evasive. I got down to 55% hp against a scout shark by trying to use him in a way that keeps his melee buffs.

    I've said it before but the play mechanics in this game relies on ranged attacking far too much. The only bot that can set up a melee string reliably without the need for ranged attacks first is Motormaster. Cheetor doesn't work because the AI seems to time it to hit him with ranged attacks.

    Let us say that you sidestep ranged attacks and then dash - you will be intercepted with melee attacks or the AI will dodge it. The same way that if we need to take ranged attacks out of the equation, for EMI mod, reflect or the absorb lanes, we basically have to just wait for the AI to charge so we can dodge and counter, or we bait out specials. The only other scenario, is if you dodge the first ranged attack and dash in and the AI has launched 3 ranged attacks. This relies on luck, as if you wait, count and react, it is too late.

    The entire game is setting up melee attacks with ranged attacks or dodge and counter. So yeah, you can launch two ranged shots and dash in with Tantrum. Maybe you get lucky and start hitting the AI's block - the only option you have next (if it's your first buff) is to launch a heavy and then repeat. Usually the AI at expert and above reacts too quick when it gets up for you to carry on in that fashion, but if you do, then maybe you get to two buffs - at which point they're probably against the wall, and you can launch another heavy. If the AI dodges this, which they do often, then you are forced to defend by blocking. Sure, this charges unstoppable but the AI will launch a heavy. Noone here is quick enough to counter that heavy by attacking rather than dodging back (if it's melee heavy). Sure you can sidestep a ranged heavy, but you still don't have the distance needed to charge or even launch your own attack, the cooldowns from sideways movement means the AI still gets the first hit, stupidly. The main thing here is that most melee attack setups end in failure and the need to dodge back out of it to create space. I think the intention is to charge, use a heavy attack to create space and then charge again - heavy doesn't connect enough never mind stun enough to make it a viable playstyle, though. Even Arcee destroys Tantrum - that extra armour for the first hit whilst he is charging is good, but the follow ups are still brutal.

    So basically, I think the most viable way of adjusting Tantrum to be viable at all game modes is to keep him the same with the exception of the dash back punish. Make it so that the melee buffs start to expire on a timer upon a back dash and can only be saved by charging in again. Keep the unstoppable but have it so it doesn't interact with the buffs. Have a double dash back make it cancel all buffs or something.

    Also, unstoppable triggers half way through his sp3, so only a few seconds of it are actually useful. Change this so it begins at the end of the animation.

  • Gunz0Gunz0 Posts: 2,666
    Tantrum is pretty underwhelming. He has a good damage potential, kewl animations. But that backstep penalty is BS, some attacks can't be sidestepped at all, does Kabam expect us to block all attacks like that? Blocking isn't a good tactic either, some basic attacks from Expert and Master bots can remove 10% of your health bar. And 2 of his special attacks are ranged based, making Tantrum's melee buffs less effective.
    I was disappointed to see how there could be a worse bot than Tact Bee and Hound. Even my 3* Blaster and Kickback managed to impress me with their utilities. Tabntrum's just a lame bot with crappy buff gaining mechanics.
  • GojuanesGojuanes Posts: 45
    DaveJL wrote: »
    Darm0k wrote: »
    Couple other options:

    -instead of losing all the melee buffs instantly on backstep, it starts a countdown timer before removing them. The timer can be stopped by doing another dash attack (which will still add one more melee buff)

    -on backstep, you lose 1 melee buff or maybe better if it’s for every two back steps.

    This is exactly what I suggested to Manthro when he showed me this thread.

    As it stands, my 3/30 5* Tantrum is viable for game mode difficulty up to but not including expert 3.2 easy path. At this point, it isn't viable because the AI is too evasive. I got down to 55% hp against a scout shark by trying to use him in a way that keeps his melee buffs.

    I've said it before but the play mechanics in this game relies on ranged attacking far too much. The only bot that can set up a melee string reliably without the need for ranged attacks first is Motormaster. Cheetor doesn't work because the AI seems to time it to hit him with ranged attacks.

    Let us say that you sidestep ranged attacks and then dash - you will be intercepted with melee attacks or the AI will dodge it. The same way that if we need to take ranged attacks out of the equation, for EMI mod, reflect or the absorb lanes, we basically have to just wait for the AI to charge so we can dodge and counter, or we bait out specials. The only other scenario, is if you dodge the first ranged attack and dash in and the AI has launched 3 ranged attacks. This relies on luck, as if you wait, count and react, it is too late.

    The entire game is setting up melee attacks with ranged attacks or dodge and counter. So yeah, you can launch two ranged shots and dash in with Tantrum. Maybe you get lucky and start hitting the AI's block - the only option you have next (if it's your first buff) is to launch a heavy and then repeat. Usually the AI at expert and above reacts too quick when it gets up for you to carry on in that fashion, but if you do, then maybe you get to two buffs - at which point they're probably against the wall, and you can launch another heavy. If the AI dodges this, which they do often, then you are forced to defend by blocking. Sure, this charges unstoppable but the AI will launch a heavy. Noone here is quick enough to counter that heavy by attacking rather than dodging back (if it's melee heavy). Sure you can sidestep a ranged heavy, but you still don't have the distance needed to charge or even launch your own attack, the cooldowns from sideways movement means the AI still gets the first hit, stupidly. The main thing here is that most melee attack setups end in failure and the need to dodge back out of it to create space. I think the intention is to charge, use a heavy attack to create space and then charge again - heavy doesn't connect enough never mind stun enough to make it a viable playstyle, though. Even Arcee destroys Tantrum - that extra armour for the first hit whilst he is charging is good, but the follow ups are still brutal.

    So basically, I think the most viable way of adjusting Tantrum to be viable at all game modes is to keep him the same with the exception of the dash back punish. Make it so that the melee buffs start to expire on a timer upon a back dash and can only be saved by charging in again. Keep the unstoppable but have it so it doesn't interact with the buffs. Have a double dash back make it cancel all buffs or something.

    Also, unstoppable triggers half way through his sp3, so only a few seconds of it are actually useful. Change this so it begins at the end of the animation.

    I could have not put it better,... excellent breakdown of Tantrum's mechanics and why Kabam really needs to make some adjustments to this bot. I mean, it is the first 5* featured bot after all and they are asking 1m chips to get it. They should at least make it worth while and give him solid offensive options.

    Hopefully the mods are reading this thread and help us make these changes happen. Although lately I haven't seen much of them in response to some good community suggestions including this one.

    Thanks for your time writing this man.... Now we need kabam to get on board.

  • DaveJLDaveJL Posts: 1,690
    Gojuanes wrote: »
    DaveJL wrote: »
    Darm0k wrote: »
    Couple other options:

    -instead of losing all the melee buffs instantly on backstep, it starts a countdown timer before removing them. The timer can be stopped by doing another dash attack (which will still add one more melee buff)

    -on backstep, you lose 1 melee buff or maybe better if it’s for every two back steps.

    This is exactly what I suggested to Manthro when he showed me this thread.

    As it stands, my 3/30 5* Tantrum is viable for game mode difficulty up to but not including expert 3.2 easy path. At this point, it isn't viable because the AI is too evasive. I got down to 55% hp against a scout shark by trying to use him in a way that keeps his melee buffs.

    I've said it before but the play mechanics in this game relies on ranged attacking far too much. The only bot that can set up a melee string reliably without the need for ranged attacks first is Motormaster. Cheetor doesn't work because the AI seems to time it to hit him with ranged attacks.

    Let us say that you sidestep ranged attacks and then dash - you will be intercepted with melee attacks or the AI will dodge it. The same way that if we need to take ranged attacks out of the equation, for EMI mod, reflect or the absorb lanes, we basically have to just wait for the AI to charge so we can dodge and counter, or we bait out specials. The only other scenario, is if you dodge the first ranged attack and dash in and the AI has launched 3 ranged attacks. This relies on luck, as if you wait, count and react, it is too late.

    The entire game is setting up melee attacks with ranged attacks or dodge and counter. So yeah, you can launch two ranged shots and dash in with Tantrum. Maybe you get lucky and start hitting the AI's block - the only option you have next (if it's your first buff) is to launch a heavy and then repeat. Usually the AI at expert and above reacts too quick when it gets up for you to carry on in that fashion, but if you do, then maybe you get to two buffs - at which point they're probably against the wall, and you can launch another heavy. If the AI dodges this, which they do often, then you are forced to defend by blocking. Sure, this charges unstoppable but the AI will launch a heavy. Noone here is quick enough to counter that heavy by attacking rather than dodging back (if it's melee heavy). Sure you can sidestep a ranged heavy, but you still don't have the distance needed to charge or even launch your own attack, the cooldowns from sideways movement means the AI still gets the first hit, stupidly. The main thing here is that most melee attack setups end in failure and the need to dodge back out of it to create space. I think the intention is to charge, use a heavy attack to create space and then charge again - heavy doesn't connect enough never mind stun enough to make it a viable playstyle, though. Even Arcee destroys Tantrum - that extra armour for the first hit whilst he is charging is good, but the follow ups are still brutal.

    So basically, I think the most viable way of adjusting Tantrum to be viable at all game modes is to keep him the same with the exception of the dash back punish. Make it so that the melee buffs start to expire on a timer upon a back dash and can only be saved by charging in again. Keep the unstoppable but have it so it doesn't interact with the buffs. Have a double dash back make it cancel all buffs or something.

    Also, unstoppable triggers half way through his sp3, so only a few seconds of it are actually useful. Change this so it begins at the end of the animation.

    I could have not put it better,... excellent breakdown of Tantrum's mechanics and why Kabam really needs to make some adjustments to this bot. I mean, it is the first 5* featured bot after all and they are asking 1m chips to get it. They should at least make it worth while and give him solid offensive options.

    Hopefully the mods are reading this thread and help us make these changes happen. Although lately I haven't seen much of them in response to some good community suggestions including this one.

    Thanks for your time writing this man.... Now we need kabam to get on board.

    You close to the 1m chips yet mate? I'm at 500k and bored already!

    Re-read my post and I think I can make it clearer.

    Fighting mechanics are as follows (if anyone has any other play styles, share them!): -

    Launch one or two ranged shots and dash in

    Dodge ranged attacks and dash in

    Wait for AI to dash in, dodge or block and counter or hope to intercept with ranged attacks (doesn't help Tantrum)

    Bait AI special attacks (doesn't help early fight and you're still having to block until you go unstoppable as the special will close distance).


    If you dodge ranged attacks and dash, usually you get intercepted with an attack - the AI very rarely dodges this. Not advised. You end up in a situation where you've taken damage and you are close up, without the ability to launch a heavy attack to create distance as the AI is in control here.

    So as we can see, the only fight mechanic that Tantrum can employ to ramp up is the ranged followed by dash, as the other mechanic means you can't charge. At a high level, generally speaking you land your two ranged shots (after much dancing) dash in, do your combo being either 5 hits or 4 hits and a heavy attack. After, you would usually dash back to avoid the inevitable AI retaliation. THIS IS THE PROBLEM. Best case scenario is you land two ranged shots, dash in and land your 4 hits and you land a heavy. You can time two more ranged shots and a dash in before the AI can react (unless they are holding a special). This usually results in the AI dodging and countering but at this point you've got 2 buffs.

    Let's say your heavy attack is dodged, though. Usually, you launch a heavy and dash back just in case. With Tantrum you are forced to block if your heavy doesn't connect, because if you dash back it's all lost. Unstoppable will begin charging if it's your first time. At this point, the AI launches a heavy - if it's melee you must take it or dash back. Ranged you can sidestep but must block immediately because you cannot attack. Then it starts charging again. At this point you are stuck doing this until unstoppable triggers. Then you're unstoppable, protecting your one (maybe two) melee buffs...

    That's a lot of text and even more effort to explain why Tantrum doesn't work against a harder AI, no matter his rank and rarity. Definitely needs a tweak.
  • SparkShredderSparkShredder Posts: 1,300
    edited July 2018
    His heavy attack suck..
    It's a short-ranged ranged attack through which basic ranged can pass through and intercept..
    Either make it complete melee it or make it completely ranged
  • ManthroManthro Posts: 2,733
    Loving the input on this thread guys! Nobody is asking to make him super OP, just subtle adjustments to the existing mechanics and playstyle, which is what I wanted.

    Hoping this gains enough momentum to get noticed.
  • Jay32Jay32 Posts: 166
    Combo meter for buffs would be sweet & while we're taking about buffs can you please fix Primals sticky feet!!!!!!
  • SwampratsSwamprats Posts: 28
    His heavy attack suck..
    It's a short-ranged ranged attack through which basic ranged can pass through and intercept..
    Either make it complete melee it or make it completely ranged

    His heavy attack is used as a backstep if you didnt notice he backs up without losing his buffs
  • KillMasterCKillMasterC Posts: 2,787
    edited July 2018
    This makes me wonder when the last round of bot adjustment was. I can vaguely recall some redesign of UM 's sig, Galvs and Shock reclaiming their place in the rank, and nothing since. Have the devs really looked at the statistics?
    There have been great and constructive ideas here and in many similar posts (Jazz, Hound, Blaster etc.) but if the change is made every 6 months, I think the trail will have gone deadly cold.
  • Thanks for the feedback on this one! Lots of constructive thoughts put into this! We'll be sharing it with the rest of the team.
  • acidfunacidfun Posts: 5
    What about if you only loose one buff every time u dash back, making it u get one when dash in and you loose one when dash back.
  • Gunz0Gunz0 Posts: 2,666
    Since Kabam loves RNG and randomness, why not only give Tantrum a 20~10% chance to lose all/one melee buff when dashing back
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