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The problem with Tantrum design
Manthro
Posts: 2,752
So... @Synthwave hasn't created a review on Tantrum yet, but I can't hold back some of my criticism on him. There are some HUGE fundamental flaws that go far beyond the Melee buff loss on backstep issue detailed in my other thread.
@Synthwave feel free to comment on this incredibly long post, and sorry if I stole your thunder.
Here we go...
The main problem with Tantrum is simply this... He outright SUCKS against warriors, the class he is supposed to have an advantage against.
Here's why.
The best way to utilize tantrum is to dash in a few times, gain frenzy, then trigger unstoppable with your block and dash back and forth a few more times to max your melee buffs.
Think about doing this against any Warrior except Hot Rod.
Arcee:
Will make you taste her anus by intercepting your dash ins with impeccably timed ranged headshots from impossibly close range.
Bludgeon:
You will always run the risk of eating a sig super Crit with dash ins for the same reason as above, as well as the possibility of eating his very fast melee attack counter hit.
BC :
Needs no explanation. Tantrum has virtually no benefits against BC other than the class advantage attack rating itself.
Drift:
Not too bad, unless he is powered up by swordmaster synergy... Then you run the same risks as you do against Bludgeon and Arcee.
Literally the only warrior he can fight is Hot Rod.
Considering his all out offense style, he needs better countermeasures against warriors.
Here's some suggestions on top of the solutions to stopping the loss of melee buffs in the other thread:
1) When unstoppable, has 100% Crit resistance on dash ins (basically, temporary crit armour).
2) +8% block proficiency per melee buff
3) each time Tantrum reaches 20 hits on the combo meter, has a 30% chance to lockout opponent s3 for 12 seconds.
His Sig is pretty solid, but it actually won't trigger if you are maxed out on buffs... So you are forced to either intentionally lose your buffs or fight without his Sig if you are ninja.
This is where losing one melee buff each time you backstep would be helpful. You can keep frenzy rolling throughout the fight if you have the skills, and it would still be very difficult to do so.
He just needs more tools due to the exposure of his playstyle. I'm spitballing ideas here and welcome any constructive feedback.
No tirades please. If you have nothing to add except empty complaints, move along.
Everyone knows he isn't very good with his current skillset, he's just too vulnerable. The only reason he seems even somewhat difficult to fight in spotlight is because of the mod combination placed upon him.
I know a buff won't happen until after spotlight is over, but it's already quite clear he is flawed. Cool concept, and he has potential... But he's only half baked right now.
@Synthwave feel free to comment on this incredibly long post, and sorry if I stole your thunder.
Here we go...
The main problem with Tantrum is simply this... He outright SUCKS against warriors, the class he is supposed to have an advantage against.
Here's why.
The best way to utilize tantrum is to dash in a few times, gain frenzy, then trigger unstoppable with your block and dash back and forth a few more times to max your melee buffs.
Think about doing this against any Warrior except Hot Rod.
Arcee:
Will make you taste her anus by intercepting your dash ins with impeccably timed ranged headshots from impossibly close range.
Bludgeon:
You will always run the risk of eating a sig super Crit with dash ins for the same reason as above, as well as the possibility of eating his very fast melee attack counter hit.
BC :
Needs no explanation. Tantrum has virtually no benefits against BC other than the class advantage attack rating itself.
Drift:
Not too bad, unless he is powered up by swordmaster synergy... Then you run the same risks as you do against Bludgeon and Arcee.
Literally the only warrior he can fight is Hot Rod.
Considering his all out offense style, he needs better countermeasures against warriors.
Here's some suggestions on top of the solutions to stopping the loss of melee buffs in the other thread:
1) When unstoppable, has 100% Crit resistance on dash ins (basically, temporary crit armour).
2) +8% block proficiency per melee buff
3) each time Tantrum reaches 20 hits on the combo meter, has a 30% chance to lockout opponent s3 for 12 seconds.
His Sig is pretty solid, but it actually won't trigger if you are maxed out on buffs... So you are forced to either intentionally lose your buffs or fight without his Sig if you are ninja.
This is where losing one melee buff each time you backstep would be helpful. You can keep frenzy rolling throughout the fight if you have the skills, and it would still be very difficult to do so.
He just needs more tools due to the exposure of his playstyle. I'm spitballing ideas here and welcome any constructive feedback.
No tirades please. If you have nothing to add except empty complaints, move along.
Everyone knows he isn't very good with his current skillset, he's just too vulnerable. The only reason he seems even somewhat difficult to fight in spotlight is because of the mod combination placed upon him.
I know a buff won't happen until after spotlight is over, but it's already quite clear he is flawed. Cool concept, and he has potential... But he's only half baked right now.
Tagged:
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Comments
I guess you missed the reference to the other thread. This has already been covered, and sent to the dev team for review.
Reminder of already suggested ideas:
Ideally as other players have mentioned, you will let him loose only one buff per back step and allow his heavy to go across the screen and/or cancel an opponents range attacks.
Now if you guys still think that's not balanced,.. Here are some other ideas....
New Ones:
1- One of the main complains is the way he losses buffs. As much as several people have mentioned that he is a close combat fighter, I found that he actually relies on keeping a safe distance in order to be able to dash to get the buff. Staying close wont actually let you build your buffs and you either have to step backwards and loose buffs or heavy and then hope the AI doesn't counter right away. The issue trying to find that first opening is that by dashing side to side evading range (to asses a safe opportunity) , you actually get closer to the opponent hence putting you at a distance where you are no longer able to dash and get the buff and actually get hit by a close range heavy like drift, hot rod and BC.
I thought that maybe to make his style more unique and actually valuable. You guys can make it so his sidestepping allows him to move back slowly. This will allow him to play the range game (side to side and keeping distance) and then once you find the opening you dash in for the buff. Aside from helping you asses an opening better for that first dash, against bots like HotRod, Drift, BC (Bots he should have an advantage against),.. the mechanic of going back slowly on side stepping, will help a bit at keeping him at distance from the short heavies without losing buffs. Is not quite as easy as a full dash back but something that could work in some cases (Not OP).
2- During frenzy make him so he doesn't loose buffs when back stepping or if you think that's too unbalanced, then so he only looses one buff on back stepping while its signature is active. This way at least he will have two options viable for him to keep his buffs while back stepping (unstoppable and frenzied). It will require skill for a player to maintain its buffs while timing and alternating these two options.
Hopefully you guys have been putting more thought into this guy and are able to improve him soon after this spotlight finishes.
Appreciate your consideration.
I’m gonna make a video.
Ok... I'm gonna say this again. These discussions are for high level end game content viability, not for arena or expert spotlight, or even master spotlight for that matter.
These discussions revolve around how well the bot can play in ROK, ROTK, and super high level AM (65+)
If you are bringing your comments from any game mode other than these and how the bot should be used, it does not translate.
If you think the AI is gonna just let you steamroll with multiple combos in a row, you have zero clue what you are talking about.
There is a good way to play Tantrum, but it requires him to be awakened, and it also requires the willingness to take damage, which is unpleasant at high level difficulty.
Before you tell me that I’m clueless...
I respectfully disagree with you.
Nice to hear is working great for you,,.... im working on mastering mine as well but finding my own struggles:
- If you throw a heavy to start your combo,... how do you safely asses when to do it. I have experienced multiple times,... Tantrum's heavy simply gets intercepted by the opponents range since it goes through it easily. That is why I usually just range attack and sidestep until one of my range attacks lands and then is when I dash for the combo. However when doing so,.. as stated in my comment,... I often find myself too close to the opponent to get a buff or sometimes I have to just dash back because the AI is about to hit me with a short heavy (drift/HR/BC).
I do agree his damage output is amazing,.... just have not found a reliable way to use his heavy when being heavily attacked by range attacks like Mirage, HR, Arcee, Wasp, Drift,.. etc... and also would like a play stile mechanic which doesn't punish you for evading an aggressive AI but instead rewards you for it.
I really liked some of the ideas Manthro mentioned like the combo meter to keep buffs or losing just one melee buff per back step,.. hence allowing you to use skill in order to have your signature active often (going down one buff then building back again to 3,6,9 and refresh signature),... That will be really fun.
If you happen to have some videos showing your Tantrum fighting 14K+ PI Bots,.. that will be great to see and learn.
That doesn't mean anything... We're talking high level AM - all you've shown is a screenshot showing the first two chapters of master spotligh finished, which isn't difficult and doesn't mean you used Tantrum...
That's actually ROTK , not spotlight... But it still doesn't mean he used tantrum in them, nor do I think an r2 unforged 5* tantrum to be strong enough in ROTK in the first place.
lmao good point.
I've also done ROTK and look how stupid I am (not saying you are stupid Vava)
I only posted the picture of my Tantrum to show that he was duped, because that matters.
I didn’t read your Original Post as limiting the conversation to RoK.
I’ll stop posting, this whole thread feels a little aggro to me.
I think you're totally missing the point. Yes he is fun to play and he is fine to be used in lower level content but his design just does not let him scale up to a point where he can be used to play the higher end content. You obviously aren't a noob - but I fail to see how you can't see his limitations here. The play style you habe described doesn't work in Master mode, never mind AM or any other content. I've got a r3 duped Tantrum as you well know, and I respectfully disagree with you.
Tantrum is super fun to play! He's just extremely difficult to utilize in end game content because you have to expose yourself and be ultra aggressive.
That's the whole point here, and we are all pitching ideas on how to help that glaring issue without making Tantrum super OP and breaking the meta.
His heavies are that reliable either. They can easily intercept. And how long you can be offensive, there comes a time when when you 'run' away from Opponent to bait their specials, blocking doesn't help that either in Master Spotlight, say they have special boost or UNBLOCKABLE Special.
They play style work when you can kill the opponent before they could fill three bars.
Of course AM is a different test but once frenzied, immune to dots, and able to pass through block he has potential to take down BC. He's a risky bot but I think some of the suggestions would make him overpowered. Perhaps a short frenzy on his dash (like unstoppable) which would give him immunity to DoTs on his dash as well would help.
The one I completely agree with is his heavy. It should be ranged to cancel other regular and heavy ranged just like Soundwave. I also think the chance for his s1 to burn should be increased, as of now it's near useless.
I disliked him at first but with each buff providing 24% I think changing his backstep or playing to max out his buffs isn't the design.
And If they really wanna his heavy a Ranged Melee, they can change his animation, Like he rams into Opponent and his horns are electrically charged and when he's about hit opponent, he unleashes an Shock Blast.