The BEST and most Fair solution to the Wasp exploit

24

Comments

  • VoltronVoltron Posts: 799
    man some people are passive aggressive and have horrible humor ;)
  • HZEROHZERO Posts: 51
    Synthwave wrote: »
    HZERO wrote: »
    Hey Manthro,

    Thanks for the suggestion, I have made note of it for our team! This is a tricky situation, and one that we're studying keenly. No matter what we do, there will be some kind of effect on Commanders that are not making use of Waspinator's revive in Alliance Missions in this manner. Our goal is to find the way that has the least effect on other players, or other modes.

    We're still not ready to announce anything yet, but have not forgotten this!


    I do not understand what is the desire to f. . . the best of the demolition bot. I do not see anybody complaining about the combination of Wheeljack with the master of nanotechnology, which allows to activate the shield of 75% of life on multiple occasions, making you can do the whole map with just that bot without dying. Changing Waspaneitor's ability is to send the bot to the trash for other game modes, several of us use team Beast Wars to spotlight mission and other game modes. The solution to this should not touch the bot's ability

    Again, for everyone bringing up the false equivalence of comparing Waspinator to Wheeljack + Nanorepair, MV1 + Hound, Demotron, Ratchet, Megatronus etc.; all of these bots can be instantly KO'd by having their abilities bypassed or just outright nuked from catastrophic damage. There is most certainly risk using them, make no mistake. The only risk with using Waspinator in AM is as your watching TV, you reach for your beverage and brush up against the screen to unpause your 87th fight against Cheetor before the timer reaches 0:00.

    Those other bots can DIE. I took one special 2 from Grimlock on the 2.2 lane of AM while using an r3 max forged 5 star Megatronus who had FULL HEALTH. He was KO'd immediately. No relic of immortality or anything, just dead. Same thing with Wheeljack + Nanorepair. One dark burn heavy from Galvatron ripped him a new one on lane 1.3. Burned through 2 out of 3 of his shields. MV1 doesn't stand a chance if he takes a special at the wrong time or simply has it bypassed using Cheetor; same with Demotron. Ratchet can heal really well but is also apparently made out of balsa wood. You can't compare these bots to Waspinator BECAUSE NONE OF THEM COME BACK TO LIFE AFTER A KO.

    So please stop trying conflate these two or saying that people are just going to complain about them after they solve the Waspinator exploit. I guarantee you that the alliances currently using this exploit will not be doing the same difficulty levels they're doing right now while attempting to use WJ, Rat, Demotron, MV1+Hound, or Megatronus. Not without spending anyway.

    "You can not compare these bots to Waspinator BECAUSE NONE OF THEM COME BACK TO LIFE AFTER A KO". Obviously not, I know read and I want to assume that you too, and none of those other bots say in your ability Waspaneitor lives.

    However, their abilities also give them an advantage, that if you hit a special burn with your Wheljack is your thing, but you can easily receive specials and keep the shield and life above 75%. All this I do not even wear it in my team because my lines do not have tactical bots, but if you change the ability to Waspaneitor, you ruin it for the other game modes.

    And I do not complain about Wheljack's combination, I do not care, those who want to use it are free to do it, what does not make me right is that they modify a ability of a bot that takes time in the game just because some surly feels that they take advantage of him.

    In almost everything the simple solution, that adds a skill to all the mods of alliance mission, that prevents to revivir if it receives deadly damage, but that they do not modify the ability of Waspaneitor
  • HZEROHZERO Posts: 51

    If you add that ability to the alliance mission mods "MORTAL DAMAGE MAKES IT IMPOSSIBLE TO REVIVE YOUR BOTS DURING THE FIGHT" the ability of Waspaneitor is preserved for the other game modes, as well as for the Waspaneitor that is in the alliance mission . Since it is only going to apply to your bots not to himself.

    That way if you want to take it to Alliance mission you can do it, and it does not lose its essence in the other modes of the game
  • @UrAverageMalaka
    While I would like to make a counterargument, I want to respect @Manthro's whishes and keep the thread related the discussion. Maybe we could start a different thread on Transformers' power levels
  • KennyKenny Posts: 309
    Jazz444 wrote: »
    Why is everyone having such a problem with my boy Waspinator nothing wrong with him at all I don’t see a glitch

    You must not be aware of it. Go into am with wasp, when you die and your sig goes off just pause the game and let the timer run out. You’ll see pretty quickly why this isn’t ok to leave in the game.

    Waspinator just happens to be the biggest problem, to be honest leaving in nanojack bothers me to. That’s for another day though.

    Just the fact that kabam is knowingly allowing people to never die in the alliance missions is mind boggling to me. I mean it’s the only game mode with even a little bit of competition, yet they give players the option to never die? Obviously the alliance rankings will soon become who has the most waspinators on the field.

    At this point however they change it is fine by me, he was only filler for bw teams and will most likely be replaced with scorpinok in other modes anyways. Sadly, as much as I want every bot to be viable, something here has to change. If that means making waspinator worse then so be it.
  • I still don’t understand why some of you are arguing. Wasp is causing a huge issue. I don’t care how you fix him, just do it already. Alliances who have no skill and just use wasp are taking over am. That’s not what was intended. But, kabam is allowing wasp to be used still, so everyone rank your wasp up and have fun with free am. It’s going to take them a while to fix wasp
  • NutjobNutjob Posts: 150
    Kenny wrote: »
    Jazz444 wrote: »
    Why is everyone having such a problem with my boy Waspinator nothing wrong with him at all I don’t see a glitch

    You must not be aware of it. Go into am with wasp, when you die and your sig goes off just pause the game and let the timer run out. You’ll see pretty quickly why this isn’t ok to leave in the game.

    Waspinator just happens to be the biggest problem, to be honest leaving in nanojack bothers me to. That’s for another day though.

    Just the fact that kabam is knowingly allowing people to never die in the alliance missions is mind boggling to me. I mean it’s the only game mode with even a little bit of competition, yet they give players the option to never die? Obviously the alliance rankings will soon become who has the most waspinators on the field.

    At this point however they change it is fine by me, he was only filler for bw teams and will most likely be replaced with scorpinok in other modes anyways. Sadly, as much as I want every bot to be viable, something here has to change. If that means making waspinator worse then so be it.

    To be fair, I don't know how this works. Don't you die when you time out? I have lost my bot when I have timed out on Primal fights.

    It sounds like the 'pause' function is the issue here. What happens when the fight times out while you're paused? Is it a 50% health penalty like when the game freezes or crashes on me? If it's a 50% penalty, can't they simply change the programming rules? e.g. It's a 50% health penalty with a minimum value of x% of the bots maximum health, with x being equal to Waspinator's maximum signature heal? For me, it almost always crashes when I have full health. Is it 50% of your maximum health, or 50% of your current health when it times out? I'm usually too angry to pay much attention.

    Based on my limited understanding, that would K.O. him permanently, requiring a revive, wouldn't it?

    Maybe someone can explain what happens with this exploit. Is the problem that they time out during his revive, which somehow breaks the game? e.g. Is it different if they time out after he resurrects?

  • ÆnigmaÆnigma Posts: 295
    @Nutjob You don't die when you timeout in Alliance Missions. You just lose 50% of your HP so when they die one time with Wasp, they revive and then pause the game until it times out. Now they are out of the fight with 50% less HP from the revived amount and can go back in and try again.
  • NutjobNutjob Posts: 150
    Ænigma wrote: »
    @Nutjob You don't die when you timeout in Alliance Missions. You just lose 50% of your HP so when they die one time with Wasp, they revive and then pause the game until it times out. Now they are out of the fight with 50% less HP from the revived amount and can go back in and try again.

    Thank you. So by universally increasing the penalty to 50% of current health, but with a minimum penalty of Waspinator's maximum signature revive, wouldn't that solve the issue? He would be KO'd on the roster. This might also punish other players, but considering you can lose 50% from a fully functional bot, I think it's not unfair to KO a heavily damaged bot.

    Am I too naiive, or is this a potential solution? Looking at his intel, this would translate to a time out penalty of 50% of the bot's current health, or 20% of their maximum health, whichever is higher. I guess it would suck if you disconnected when under 20%, but at least it would deal with the cheating. Let's face it, even if the old rules applied when you're under 20%, you can't usually do much with a bot at 10% anyhow.
  • KennyKenny Posts: 309
    Nutjob wrote: »
    Kenny wrote: »
    Jazz444 wrote: »
    Why is everyone having such a problem with my boy Waspinator nothing wrong with him at all I don’t see a glitch

    You must not be aware of it. Go into am with wasp, when you die and your sig goes off just pause the game and let the timer run out. You’ll see pretty quickly why this isn’t ok to leave in the game.

    Waspinator just happens to be the biggest problem, to be honest leaving in nanojack bothers me to. That’s for another day though.

    Just the fact that kabam is knowingly allowing people to never die in the alliance missions is mind boggling to me. I mean it’s the only game mode with even a little bit of competition, yet they give players the option to never die? Obviously the alliance rankings will soon become who has the most waspinators on the field.

    At this point however they change it is fine by me, he was only filler for bw teams and will most likely be replaced with scorpinok in other modes anyways. Sadly, as much as I want every bot to be viable, something here has to change. If that means making waspinator worse then so be it.

    To be fair, I don't know how this works. Don't you die when you time out? I have lost my bot when I have timed out on Primal fights.

    It sounds like the 'pause' function is the issue here. What happens when the fight times out while you're paused? Is it a 50% health penalty like when the game freezes or crashes on me? If it's a 50% penalty, can't they simply change the programming rules? e.g. It's a 50% health penalty with a minimum value of x% of the bots maximum health, with x being equal to Waspinator's maximum signature heal? For me, it almost always crashes when I have full health. Is it 50% of your maximum health, or 50% of your current health when it times out? I'm usually too angry to pay much attention.

    Based on my limited understanding, that would K.O. him permanently, requiring a revive, wouldn't it?

    Maybe someone can explain what happens with this exploit. Is the problem that they time out during his revive, which somehow breaks the game? e.g. Is it different if they time out after he resurrects?

    To answer your first question- no you lose 50% of your current health. So this means you will never hit 0 health for timing out.

    Secondly kabam could change that if they really wanted, but we all know how the devs are so I wouldn’t bank on anything until at least 2025.
  • KennyKenny Posts: 309
    Nutjob wrote: »
    Ænigma wrote: »
    @Nutjob You don't die when you timeout in Alliance Missions. You just lose 50% of your HP so when they die one time with Wasp, they revive and then pause the game until it times out. Now they are out of the fight with 50% less HP from the revived amount and can go back in and try again.

    Thank you. So by universally increasing the penalty to 50% of current health, but with a minimum penalty of Waspinator's maximum signature revive, wouldn't that solve the issue? He would be KO'd on the roster. This might also punish other players, but considering you can lose 50% from a fully functional bot, I think it's not unfair to KO a heavily damaged bot.

    Am I too naiive, or is this a potential solution?

    This is definitely a potential solution to the problem
  • Faithz17Faithz17 Posts: 748
    I would like to suggest maybe you guys can try it out and see really how far this “exploit” can bring you. Seriously go try it out and you’ll realise how ludicrous the whole issue is. Having to keep timing out will make you want to kill your bot just to get it over with. :D
  • NutjobNutjob Posts: 150
    Faithz17 wrote: »
    I would like to suggest maybe you guys can try it out and see really how far this “exploit” can bring you. Seriously go try it out and you’ll realise how ludicrous the whole issue is. Having to keep timing out will make you want to kill your bot just to get it over with. :D

    Well, considering Waspinator gets buffs when he is at low health, plus there are masteries for damaged bots, plus combo related masteries, I can envisage that if you can put together a combo of 100 or so, you could take down most AM bots.

    If you have unlimited attempts to retry the fight, due to one misplaced dodge etc., then you could even use a more aggressive style, and take the fight seriously only if you get off to a good start.

    It sounds like if things go bad, you simply pause the game, then go and make a cup of coffee while it times out. It's not like you need to sit by your phone and wait for it. Just try again after you brush your teeth, or order a pizza etc.

    Unfortunately, there are people with enough time to do it. Their ability would need to be quite high, though clearly they're not supremely talented, or else they wouldn't need an exploit in the first place.

    I guess that just leaves the people who want to cheat their way to success. It works for world leaders, as well as tragic gamers. I guess we could argue that their ability to find and exploit loopholes could indicate potential for lives as lawyers, or politicians? FIFA executives perhaps?

  • Momo2008Momo2008 Posts: 92
    edited October 2018
    Oh well! Live long and prosper
  • Faithz17 wrote: »
    I would like to suggest maybe you guys can try it out and see really how far this “exploit” can bring you. Seriously go try it out and you’ll realise how ludicrous the whole issue is. Having to keep timing out will make you want to kill your bot just to get it over with. :D

    Whining about how long the exploit takes still does not make it right. Digging out of prison with a spoon takes forever but the guards will still shoot you if they catch you.

    15 of your Alliance members use Wasps exploit in AM, better find a new exploit to stay top 3.
  • ScarredArachnid333ScarredArachnid333 Posts: 1,856
    edited October 2018
    Does the same thing happen to Phoenix in MCOC? She practically has the same signature ability as Waspinator.

    If it does happen to her, shouldn't Kabam be worried about that exploit? And if it doesn't, shouldn't Kabam just apply the same to Waspinator?
  • that1guythat1guy Posts: 374
    edited October 2018
    Faithz17 wrote: »
    I would like to suggest maybe you guys can try it out and see really how far this “exploit” can bring you. Seriously go try it out and you’ll realise how ludicrous the whole issue is. Having to keep timing out will make you want to kill your bot just to get it over with. :D

    Faithz do you enjoy stirring the pot or something?

    'my alliance doesn't cheat you guys'
    'We play fair'
    'a banker got us the Energon!!!'
    'this whole issue is ludicrous'

    Give me a break.
  • KennyKenny Posts: 309
    Faithz17 wrote: »
    I would like to suggest maybe you guys can try it out and see really how far this “exploit” can bring you. Seriously go try it out and you’ll realise how ludicrous the whole issue is. Having to keep timing out will make you want to kill your bot just to get it over with. :D

    As much as I would love to agree with this. It’s pretty obvious that those who have hours in a day can easily run entire lanes on top difficulties. I assume that at the top you guys are at least semi-decent players who can get a minute or two at least every run. Resulting in a good bit of damage, 20-30k+?

    So every fight might take what, like 15 minutes? With two people per lane and for example with a group as active as yours.
    Faithz17 wrote: »
    Instead of "Help 12", can we change the button to "Help All"? I really don't need to see who in my alliance is asking for help. I'm happy to help but there's 200-300 requests every half an hour or so. It's like click, lag for 5 secs, click, lag, click, lag, click, lag... clicking that help button in my alliance is pretty much a full-time job on its own. =_=

    It’s obviously entirely possible. Note I just used your alliance as an example.
  • ÆnigmaÆnigma Posts: 295
    Does the same thing happen to Phoenix in MCOC? She practically has the same signature ability as Waspinator.

    If it does happen to her, shouldn't Kabam be worried about that exploit? And if it doesn't, shouldn't Kabam just apply the same to Waspinator?

    I had the same thoughts on this but Phoenix has been out for a long time and I don't think anyone even cares to try this technique with her. Its not the same audience in MCOC as it is over here so people over there don't try stupid things like this that will waste SO much of their time...

    Any of the exploits used in MCOC are usually ones that will speed up anything you are trying to do...
  • ÆnigmaÆnigma Posts: 295
    that1guy wrote: »
    Faithz17 wrote: »
    I would like to suggest maybe you guys can try it out and see really how far this “exploit” can bring you. Seriously go try it out and you’ll realise how ludicrous the whole issue is. Having to keep timing out will make you want to kill your bot just to get it over with. :D

    Faithz do you enjoy stirring the pot or something?

    'my alliance doesn't cheat you guys'
    'We play fair'
    'a banker got us the Energon!!!'
    'this whole issue is ludicrous'

    Give me a break.


    Lmao! True story! Everyone already knows her alliance is a sham!
  • Darm0kDarm0k Posts: 1,991
    You never know, Kabam could be colluding with certain alliances. Huh... you know, the moderators say they play this game, but no one knows their in-game names so...... Hmmm......

    /crazytheory
  • Momo2008Momo2008 Posts: 92
    edited October 2018
    popcorn time
  • C0M1C5C0M1C5 Posts: 42
    From my view, Time and Money is a commodity.

    If players have the money to spend on AM revives and heal, then I see no issue if players want to spend time to let the timers hit zero.

    I personally do not have the time to let the timers constantly drain for 5 minutes. I would rather use that time for Arenas/Raids/story (even setting on autofight).

    Ultimately, I play a game for fun. If I treat this game/AM as a job, I would reach burnout real quick.
    Everyone has a different concept of what is "fun", so if they find their methods fun, then they should keep doing it, without judgement from others.
  • asparagusasparagus Posts: 161
    C0M1C5 wrote: »
    From my view, Time and Money is a commodity.

    If players have the money to spend on AM revives and heal, then I see no issue if players want to spend time to let the timers hit zero.

    I personally do not have the time to let the timers constantly drain for 5 minutes. I would rather use that time for Arenas/Raids/story (even setting on autofight).

    Ultimately, I play a game for fun. If I treat this game/AM as a job, I would reach burnout real quick.
    Everyone has a different concept of what is "fun", so if they find their methods fun, then they should keep doing it, without judgement from others.

    No. The players who are competing care that the game is being played fairly. The players using the wasp exploit are cheating.
  • NutjobNutjob Posts: 150
    C0M1C5 wrote: »
    From my view, Time and Money is a commodity.

    If players have the money to spend on AM revives and heal, then I see no issue if players want to spend time to let the timers hit zero.

    I personally do not have the time to let the timers constantly drain for 5 minutes. I would rather use that time for Arenas/Raids/story (even setting on autofight).

    Ultimately, I play a game for fun. If I treat this game/AM as a job, I would reach burnout real quick.
    Everyone has a different concept of what is "fun", so if they find their methods fun, then they should keep doing it, without judgement from others.

    If an athlete wants to spend money on steroids and other performance enhancing drugs, should we judge them, or just give them their prizes and records? Should we congratulate them for finding ways to win their own way?

    I don't compete in any important sporting contests, but I still judge those athletes, because I feel sympathy for the others who try to win fairly.

    Then again, some athletes have been equipment, coaches and training facilities etc., so is anything truly fair?
  • NutjobNutjob Posts: 150
    Nutjob wrote: »
    C0M1C5 wrote: »
    From my view, Time and Money is a commodity.

    If players have the money to spend on AM revives and heal, then I see no issue if players want to spend time to let the timers hit zero.

    I personally do not have the time to let the timers constantly drain for 5 minutes. I would rather use that time for Arenas/Raids/story (even setting on autofight).

    Ultimately, I play a game for fun. If I treat this game/AM as a job, I would reach burnout real quick.
    Everyone has a different concept of what is "fun", so if they find their methods fun, then they should keep doing it, without judgement from others.

    If an athlete wants to spend money on steroids and other performance enhancing drugs, should we judge them, or just give them their prizes and records? Should we congratulate them for finding ways to win their own way?

    I don't compete in any important sporting contests, but I still judge those athletes, because I feel sympathy for the others who try to win fairly.

    Then again, some athletes have been equipment, coaches and training facilities etc., so is anything truly fair?

    I wanted to write 'better equipment', but somehow 'been' came out. I think I need some sleep!
  • that1guythat1guy Posts: 374
    C0M1C5 wrote: »
    From my view, Time and Money is a commodity.

    If players have the money to spend on AM revives and heal, then I see no issue if players want to spend time to let the timers hit zero.

    I personally do not have the time to let the timers constantly drain for 5 minutes. I would rather use that time for Arenas/Raids/story (even setting on autofight).

    Ultimately, I play a game for fun. If I treat this game/AM as a job, I would reach burnout real quick.
    Everyone has a different concept of what is "fun", so if they find their methods fun, then they should keep doing it, without judgement from others.

    From the cheaters point of view, none of that matters. They play to be on top of ladder and they'll use any method possible.

    That's why they utilize this exploit; meanwhile, those that play the game "as intended" get screwed over because Kabam is too complacent to actually do something about it. The least they could do is disable waspinator in AM while they figure out a permanent solution; but nah, let the discussion continue here guys, they'll 'pass it on to the team', like it means anything anymore.
  • ÆnigmaÆnigma Posts: 295
    that1guy wrote: »
    C0M1C5 wrote: »
    From my view, Time and Money is a commodity.

    If players have the money to spend on AM revives and heal, then I see no issue if players want to spend time to let the timers hit zero.

    I personally do not have the time to let the timers constantly drain for 5 minutes. I would rather use that time for Arenas/Raids/story (even setting on autofight).

    Ultimately, I play a game for fun. If I treat this game/AM as a job, I would reach burnout real quick.
    Everyone has a different concept of what is "fun", so if they find their methods fun, then they should keep doing it, without judgement from others.

    From the cheaters point of view, none of that matters. They play to be on top of ladder and they'll use any method possible.

    That's why they utilize this exploit; meanwhile, those that play the game "as intended" get screwed over because Kabam is too complacent to actually do something about it. The least they could do is disable waspinator in AM while they figure out a permanent solution; but nah, let the discussion continue here guys, they'll 'pass it on to the team', like it means anything anymore.

    The thought of "banning" wasp has came to mind several times! Would be REALLY interesting if they did that and I would not be against that at all lol.
  • Faithz17Faithz17 Posts: 748
    Kabam sets the rules here. If they don’t call it cheating, then why should any player’s personal interpretation/ opinion be taken as “the rules”?

    If you want to use wasp or don’t want to use wasp, it’s up to you. If you don’t want to use, no one is forcing you to use. Likewise, if others want to use, what right do you have to control what bots others use? Unless we are colluding again? :D
  • asparagusasparagus Posts: 161
    Faithz17 wrote: »
    Kabam sets the rules here. If they don’t call it cheating, then why should any player’s personal interpretation/ opinion be taken as “the rules”?

    If you want to use wasp or don’t want to use wasp, it’s up to you. If you don’t want to use, no one is forcing you to use. Likewise, if others want to use, what right do you have to control what bots others use? Unless we are colluding again? :D

    Its cheating, lol. I'm honestly impressed by anyone who has the time to commit to doing it. Anyone can. We had a player test it last series. They spent a ton of time but they were one of our top scorers and they used zero items. Its ridiculous though and those of us competing and running high lvls are just waiting for kabam to do something about it.
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