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Does HA need another nerf?
Terminal
Posts: 789
So, with the new rank 4 for 3* mods, HA bleed is now 924% attack (480% > 600% > 732% > 924%) over 60 seconds.
If you have a rank 3 4* 520 atk bot (like Bonecrusher) this translates to 5000 damage over 60 seconds, or 80 damage per second (in game it ticks twice per second, so 40 per tick). In 12.5 seconds you've lost 1000 health. For me, that seems like way too much.
What do other people think?
If you have a rank 3 4* 520 atk bot (like Bonecrusher) this translates to 5000 damage over 60 seconds, or 80 damage per second (in game it ticks twice per second, so 40 per tick). In 12.5 seconds you've lost 1000 health. For me, that seems like way too much.
What do other people think?
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The previous nerf is reasonable because we shouldn't be punished by a stack if we dodged specials.
My understanding is that the mod adds its attack/health to the bot, and the new number behaves as the base attack/health. Also, attack buffs affect bleed damage, sticking Motormaster on a HA causes nightmares at low health and high sig.
Personally, I just stick Grimlock on raid duty and call it a day, makes things so much easier.
It's only compounded when people have a 3* and 4* HA on base.
Harm Accelerator is the only mod where I'm fighting it instead of the bot, but I think adding more bleed-resistant bots is a better long-term option than stacking nerfs.
I like the idea of adding more bleed resistant bots vs nerfing the HA again. It makes more sense as HA is really the only hard thing to deal with in raids if you don't have the right bot.
I routinely fight HA with the following bots and lose no more than 40% life bar, depending on the strength of the bot on it:
Grindor
CW Prime
IH
Ratchet
I can't stress this enough.. use class advantage against HA whenever possible. It will drastically reduce the damage you take, because the bleed is tied directly to attack rating on the opposing bot.
To clear up some misinformation about the damage, the bleed damage is based on the defenders base attack without the mod bonus stats (done by calculating the bleed % multiplied by the attack divided by 60 seconds). Class advantage/disadvantage does not modify the bleed damage. I tested this myself; Grindor on defense with HA, used IH first and then CW OP, both had the same damage ticks.
Also, I only think it could be a problem with rank 4 mod and rank 3 to 4 4* bots because the numbers are getting so big. When it's low level bots or ranks it isn't an issue.
Manthro, you're a very skilled player, you can do expert and you have high level bots. For you to come out of the fight and still lose 40% tells me that something is wrong with it, for me I think that's too much damage, your skill should be able to mitigate more damage than that. I'm quite sure against any other mod the most you'd lose is usually 5-10% right? 40% is similar for me too, against a rank 3 4* grindor with rank 4 HA he had 11,680 hp (8071+3609) hp, I killed him in 37 seconds, I got hit 4 times and luckily didn't lose time having to bait an S1, he just popped it and I avoided it. I still took 3,330 bleed damage.
I think one of the problems is imbalance relative to every other mod. It consistently does way more damage than any other. Bring them all up or all down or a medium somewhere in between.
I think the last option would be best, give a small buff to all the other mods and bring down HA a bit.
If HA is on an r5 Motormaster ( ahem... @Dircules ), you are gonna lose 50-75% of your life easily. I'm not totally convinced that HA is tied strictly to unmodified base attack rating on all scenarios... As you fight Motormaster that bleed seems to ramp up because of his Sig ability, and you bleed out scary fast as you get close to KOing him.
Versus any other R5 bot, 30-40% is the standard loss using r4 bots against them. Against R4 bots you can range anywhere from 15-30% life lost depending how the battle goes. This is simply because it takes a little more time to defeat them due to higher stats and wanting to avoid getting hit by specials at all costs.
No doubt, if I'm fighting against a 4* r3, which are the most common bots placed on HA on reasonably strong bases, I'll walk away with all of 10-15% life lost, if that.
all I'm saying is, HA seems OP when you are mismatched against it fighting a higher ranked bot than what you have, but that is to be expected.
Almost every base has two HA on it these days, and I can't remember the last time I actually lost a raid.. not even against a quintesson base.
also. missed op for a poll hehe
I don't think Kabam's intent of raiding is suppose to be 100% win rate.
It’s the only thing actually getting me defense wins these days. If not for him, raiding would just be a formality which is dumb. I agree that HA is very strong now with stronger bots and mods. But it’s the only one really having an effect so please don’t nerf it into fluff like LGM.
Plus it's a great base to weed out cheaters :P Anyone who passes through Node 1 without significant damage, and no healing capabilities, is cheating. The dude got 16k hitpoints, that takes time to chop through, especially if you're fighting perfectly waiting for openings. During that time, at least 30 seconds, taking 200+ per tick, will add up.
I take more damage from one BC+HA than every other node combined.
I have a 4* rank 4 cw prime, against a 3* rank 4 bonecrusher with 3* rank 4 HA, I was doing 104dmg per melee hit while he's doing 127dmg per melee (because of the mod adding 294 extra atk, an 80% atk boost on his base stat, plus his pure hate sig reducing dmg) plus 54 bleed dps. Plus his bleed procs, I'm getting shredded.
Maybe it's just messed up the way it's calculating stuff on Bonecrusher combined with his natural abilities.
It's not fun to play against, it's frustrating because you can't do anything about the damage, it's just a race against time.
I'm getting prime KO'd like every time it's HA+Bonecrusher, even with a 3* rank 3 mod and 4* rank 3 bot pairing, it's doing insane damage, but I can then easily clear every other node with the other two bots and not even take 25% damage. This never happened before the mod rank update. I raid extensively and I do 100+ raids during the feature week (enough to get the feature bot without dupe chips). I only lost one raid the entire week last feature (thanks Dirc
I'd like to encourage everyone to take note of HA mods that are 3* rank 4 and BC with HA in particular.
It's like either you can choose to be forced to run a particular bot just to negate one mod and make it trivial, or you try and fight it normally and get absolutely destroyed by it. There's no middle ground for a 'balanced' fight.
When a bot has 10k+ health (thanks to the mod) you can't end it before 3 bars of specials are gained so you have to bait or get a lucky special proc all the while taking 924% damage.
But what I really can't stand is how the strength of every other mod is like what, 10% of HA? Spread the strength of HA out over the other mods so we have some interesting choices and diversity and make our other 4* and 3* mods not be so useless.
It's like instead of opening a 3*/4* mod and going 'cool', a new toy. It's like is it HA? No? Feelsbadman.
Why? Because even though you'll probably lose your BC in the process, you WILL cripple his to the point that you can easily mop up the remains with your next bot.
His Crit being elevated by HA means that he will trigger a TON of bleeds on himself whenever he hits you
Just don't get hit by heavies and watch him melt without barely lifting a finger.
Barring that, demo bots with ranged heavies or Grindor are by far the best answer to BC, even moreso than MV1 or Grimlock, in my opinion.
I would take Grindor into Battle vs BC over either of those two brawlers because Grindor's innate crit reduction ability plus armor is a huge factor in preventing bonus bleed stacks, and bonus damage from BC Sig on crits in general.
I agree with you on a lot but there are a host of problems with all of it. Base defense is mostly pointless regardless but I'm once again finding that HA, and only HA, is causing a win/loss on bases which shouldn't be the case. Even following the logic of losing one bot is fine but I'm seeing multiple bases run 3* and 4* HA on r4 Grindor and BC. Now I don't have Grindor or Grimlock so I'm forced to almost always bring MV1 which gets boring. Even facing an r4 BC with a maxed mod gets r3 MV1 unduped heavily damaged.
I go back to before HA was nerfed. Having only one/two bots MV1/Grim as the counter to one mod that wins a defesne is a bit broken to me.
About the bleed dmg changing mid fight, I tested against a 3* dupe MM and the bleed stacks did not change as his sig proc'd and gave buffs. I did not test getting KO'd and bringing in a 2nd bot starting the fight with MM at low health. Maybe you got hit by an S1? I don't know.
So because of these things Manthro, and saying 'class advantage drastically reduces the bleed damage' when it has no effect, I think you've maybe mixed up a low rank HA with a class advantage damage reduction. I believe you're including HAs that aren't rank 4 and have made a mistake in your estimates.
We've gone from max 40%, to 75% for MM, to getting KO'd against Bonecrusher.
There's no special reason for MM to do 35% more than any other bot on HA (in fact, he should be one of the lowest because he doesn't get any direct buff from it, unlike bonecrusher).
Also, 4* rank 2 HA is not as bad because it doesn't do 924%, because it's only rank 2. The primary issue is the rank 4 3* mod, because of 924%, and Bonecrusher pairings. There are some other troublesome pairings, but I'd like to focus mainly on HA.
There is no question and no comment has refuted how much stronger HA is over every other mod, I think that makes it clear that some form of balancing is needed. Not simply a HA nerf, but a redistribution of it's power over other mods so we can actually have some planning and strategy and not need 100% reliance on a single mod to win.
Remember, the stats in the screenshot do not include the extra HP bestowed by the mod.
And then the screenshot at the next bot showing remaining hp:
This could have been much, much quicker. However, even with the longer than usual battle 27% loss of life isn't unreasonable.
This is against Grindor, who takes a good deal longer to KO than most bots. On a perfect round vs BC this would amount to even less HP loss. Even against Grindor this took just over 30 seconds, and I can tell you I usually down Grindor faster than that.
In all honesty, I'm rocking a r5 4* MV1 that I don't use in AM, so raids are obscenely easy thanks to HA, so my view is certainly biased
Add a bot or two that is bleed resistant, immune or that amplifies damage when bleeding and HA is much more reasonable. It is really the only mod in the game that requires a given mod to defeat it, at least without suffering some pretty hardcore damage even if you fight perfectly.
In all honesty, I'm rocking a r5 4* MV1 that I don't use in AM, so raids are obscenely easy thanks to HA, so my view is certainly biased
Add a bot or two that is bleed resistant, immune or that amplifies damage when bleeding and HA is much more reasonable. It is really the only mod in the game that requires a given mod to defeat it, at least without suffering some pretty hardcore damage even if you fight perfectly.
R4 attacker against R3 defender with class advantage isn't interesting. Show me another one where you fight R4s vs multiple R4s without class advantage, because that's what's interesting.
Next time I find one I'll prove I can get through an r4 bot on HA with only 30% life lost, which is what I stated in a much earlier post.
Mods that cause your ranged attacks to repair the enemy are great
I'm sure Kabam has loads of data about which mods trip people up the most. Introducing a few of the gnarly ones would make raids more interesting and less of a single trick pony.
An alternative would be allowing linked nodes, so the boss is served by 2 mods instead of one (if node 5 & 6 both link to 7, only one link can be removed). If that worked, adding a link from 2 & 3 to 4 a bit later would make it even more interesting; giving our bases minibosses.
Even easier from a dev perspective, would be to add a couple of basic "health & attack" mods as permanent features of all bases, even if only for the "boss" and "mini bosses"
If any of these were successful at creating more failed offensive raids, hastening the refresh rate of raid tickets by corresponding amount (or discounting the price of paid tickets, or giving raid tickets as prizes for defensive wins or some other counter-balance) would allow players to keep getting the same amount of raid chips per day so we aren't losing out in the raid store, while simultaneously making raids more interesting.
(And letting people auto-run raids would deal with the problem for many, that it would take a bit more time, since you'd have to account for the time of the occasional loss)
Still waiting