So, here's my latest fight vs a 4/40 HA on a r3 Grindor using Optimus... Loss of life = 27%. Could have been less, but had to dance a bit to avoid a couple specials:
R4 attacker against R3 defender with class advantage isn't interesting. Show me another one where you fight R4s vs multiple R4s without class advantage, because that's what's interesting.
Next time I find one I'll prove I can get through an r4 bot on HA with only 30% life lost, which is what I stated in a much earlier post.
Still waiting
R4 bots on 3* HA aren't nearly as common as you'd think.. as I said previously, the vast majority are r3. I've actually been raiding a ton just to find one, unsuccessfully lol.
So, here's my latest fight vs a 4/40 HA on a r3 Grindor using Optimus... Loss of life = 27%. Could have been less, but had to dance a bit to avoid a couple specials:
R4 attacker against R3 defender with class advantage isn't interesting. Show me another one where you fight R4s vs multiple R4s without class advantage, because that's what's interesting.
Next time I find one I'll prove I can get through an r4 bot on HA with only 30% life lost, which is what I stated in a much earlier post.
Still waiting
R4 bots on 3* HA aren't nearly as common as you'd think.. as I said previously, the vast majority are r3. I've actually been raiding a ton just to find one, unsuccessfully lol.
Ok... So after all this time, I finally found an r4 bot on an HA, but it was a 4* HA... Which means damage was 480%. But let's see what this looks like, since it was at least on a Motormaster:
And the end result:
Again... 28% damage taken on a perfect round. It's reasonable to say 50% damage is what a 3* HA would end up causing me (which was my initial estimate vs Motormaster if you recall).
I will continue to try and find a 4/40 HA on an r4 bot just to put this to rest.
Sorry, but 50% (22% more) health lost is not a reasonable assumption at all, here's why;
The mod rank is wrong. One of my main points is the new ranks give way more hp, attack and bleed %. The whole point is about because of the new rank, it needs a nerf becauase it's too over powered.
The rank 1 mod gives like 1000 health while the rank 2 gives 2700-3000 health. There's no way you're finishing the fight in the same time or less, plus having to bait specials.
The bleed alone is 100% more, 924% to 480%, plus the huge attack buff for 4*/3* rank 2/4 boosting all the blocked chip damage.
Bleed ticks twice per second. Against your enemy, 4598.4 over 60 seconds is 76 per second, 38 per tick. 924% is 8851.92. 147 per second! 73 per tick! 147 dps is insane! That's like getting hit with a ranged attack every second for the entire fight.
You've missed the point having the wrong mod rank completely.
Even with all this information, it's indisputable that HA does far more damage than every other mod combined, which means it needs a nerf.
Or maybe other mods need to be brought up to be more effective than crying nerf over everything bring other things up on similar effectiveness then bases might be defendable I will admit with new mod ranks and fixing forged bots on defense, successfull defenses went up but still not above 50%
The only thing 'not veeery right' is that 3* HA is way more powerful that 4* because they work on a percentage basis and the attack rating mainly comes from the defender. Well this will change when T2 mod class spark comes out.
But I must say that Nightbird works in a similar way. A 100 sig 2* Nightbird is more harmful than a maxed 4*.
I still don't see the need of nerfing HA. Buffing others should be a logical move. For the moment, RR and Exo are the next best thing found in 20000+ bases.
Duped Security mod should add more armor buffs. Like one armor per special landed or received. Duped Repair mod should imitate the range repair effect in Bee's Gauntlet. Just spitballing some ideas.
As a mild nerf (esp helping the newer players) I'd suggest removing the additional bleed stack on every special. When paired with a bot that has high energy gain it can make it very frustrating to use anything other than mv1 or duped grimlock.
Balancing out the mods would make raiding overall a bit more interesting. It's pretty boring dealing with multiple HAs (dont get me started on the q bases with 3* ha on all three main nodes).
As a mild nerf (esp helping the newer players) I'd suggest removing the additional bleed stack on every special. When paired with a bot that has high energy gain it can make it very frustrating to use anything other than mv1 or duped grimlock.
Balancing out the mods would make raiding overall a bit more interesting. It's pretty boring dealing with multiple HAs (dont get me started on the q bases with 3* ha on all three main nodes).
They already fixed that by making it so that all you have to do is not get hit by the special. No additional bleed stacks then.
Completely agree with those that have said that they really just need to make other mods more viable and buff them. Base defense is already poor as it is. Removing an effective mod just kills what base defense there is. As it is, I can almost just right thumb through all the bases I face. Having to actually put a little effort into beating a base would be nice for a change.
So the only argument against nerfing that anyone ever suggests is that it's the only reason they actually get some defense wins.
Well sorry, if one mod is carrying an entire base and the only reason we can get a defence win sometimes then the mod is absurdly overpowered.
You can't just have one super powered mod and all the rest are trash. One mod doing 90% of the work right now is stupid, broken and unbalanced. It's not healthy for the raid meta, it's stale and it's not fun. You can stack every other mod on top of each other and their combined strength still wouldn't equal the massive damage that HA dishes out.
Unless someone can make an argument that HA doesn't do an absurd amount of damage comparative to every other mod, then some kind of balancing is desperately needed. Buff others up, nerf others down, meet somewhere in the middle, whatever (and I've said it before in this thread, so Jon maybe try to read first before shooting your mouth off with innane comments about 'crying nerf over everything').
I don't think anyone can argue that mods are currently balanced. I think we can all agree on that. Therefore, we need some mod balancing, and urgently, because it's not a little bit stronger than every other mod, it's massively stronger.
So the only argument against nerfing that anyone ever suggests is that it's the only reason they actually get some defense wins.
Well sorry, if one mod is carrying an entire base and the only reason we can get a defence win sometimes then the mod is absurdly overpowered.
You can't just have one super powered mod and all the rest are trash. One mod doing 90% of the work right now is stupid, broken and unbalanced. It's not healthy for the raid meta, it's stale and it's not fun. You can stack every other mod on top of each other and their combined strength still wouldn't equal the massive damage that HA dishes out.
Unless someone can make an argument that HA doesn't do an absurd amount of damage comparative to every other mod, then some kind of balancing is desperately needed. Buff others up, nerf others down, meet somewhere in the middle, whatever (and I've said it before in this thread, so Jon maybe try to read first before shooting your mouth off with innane comments about 'crying nerf over everything').
I don't think anyone can argue that mods are currently balanced. I think we can all agree on that. Therefore, we need some mod balancing, and urgently, because it's not a little bit stronger than every other mod, it's massively stronger.
Depends on your definition of absurd. I am of the opinion that the other mods are absurdly under powered and HA is the only one carrying its weight.
Am pleased with some of the new mods though. I've got a Tech Console stuck to Ratchet half the time and it catches people off guard. It doesn't do damage by itself, but it boosts the bot in all the right ways. So it really is not JUST damage that makes or breaks a mod. Laser Guidance is still somewhat decent on crazy shooters like Movie Megatron.
The real issue is that the other mods aren't even worth the time it takes to look at them.
I actually get defense wins and I don't have a single HA on my base anywhere. The right mod paired with right bot can do a good job at catching people. But most still need a buff.
Yes, like I said at the beginning, there's a bunch of trash mods, when someone opens a 3*/4* mod they shouldn't feel bad just because it's not HA.
Ideally, I'd like to see HA brought down and the other mods brought up.. and an entire overhaul to the raid system, like linked nodes, synergies, item boxes, more paths, spread the raid chips out evenly again, leaderboard reset every 2 weeks, basically a competitive design your own mini-spotlight as the ultimate goal would be awesome, like a custom map maker that other players can play through.
Great news! I FINALLY ran into a 4/40 HA on a 4/40 brawler, and I killed 3 birds with one stone.
1) I did not use class advantage
2) I got hit 6 times by basic melee
3) It was Grindor, which takes extra time due to the heavy armor.
Let's see how it went:
Started off already damaged, but that makes no difference, we can treat as if I was full on hp:
Here are the final battle stats:
Now.. here is the result of hp loss.. even with the 6 melee hits, I only lost 5415hp.. so let's make this a round number and say in a perfect battle I would have lost 5000 HP, even though i'm sure I would have technically lost even less than that if I had a way to know exactly how much each melee hit took off me:
At 5000hp down from 12004 max, I came in at 42% life lost. If you want to stay with the full 5415 damage, it's still only 45% damage total.
I think that was pretty accurate original estimate on my part as to how much HP it takes to get through 4/40 bots on a 4/40 HA mod.
The numbers do not lie. Less than 50% life lost can be done, and I proved it without even needing a perfect round.
I lose more HP to a 4/40 LGM on a regular basis than I do to HA on most battles.
Doesn't line up at all with what you said before:
Versus any other R5 bot, 30-40% is the standard loss using r4 bots against them. Against R4 bots you can range anywhere from 15-30% life lost depending how the battle goes. This is simply because it takes a little more time to defeat them due to higher stats and wanting to avoid getting hit by specials at all costs.
No doubt, if I'm fighting against a 4* r3, which are the most common bots placed on HA on reasonably strong bases, I'll walk away with all of 10-15% life lost, if that.
You said a 4* rank 5 is 30-40%, 4* R4 is 15-30% and 4* R3 is 10-15% or even less than 10%.
So 45% is not really close to "15-30%", it's higher than your quote for an R5. So that doesn't seem like a pretty accurate original estimate. In addition, I think % is not helpful because the HP range can vary so much based on bot class and forging.so your 40% is over 50% for an unforged bot, it changes the percentage too much. Let's talk concrete damage numbers instead.
You've just shown that playing perfectly still causes you to take 5000 damage. 5k damage is a pretty insane punishment when you play without fault. No mod should be able to do 5000 damage to a player that doesn't make any mistakes. How is that fun, fair or challenging experience? It's just stressful. It doesn't matter what you do, here is 5k damage minimum. Sorry, but I think playing well should have more impact on the match.
If you're losing more than 5k health on a LGM mod that means you're actually being hit, so you're comparing the damage you take from perfect play on HA vs poor play on LGM, apples to oranges there. If you got hit the same amount of times that LGM is causing 5k dmg than you'd likely be KO'd several times over on HA, because that's more than 6 hits or eating a special.
You've just shown that playing perfectly still causes you to take 5000 damage. 5k damage is a pretty insane punishment when you play without fault. No mod should be able to do 5000 damage to a player that doesn't make any mistakes. How is that fun, fair or challenging experience? It's just stressful. It doesn't matter what you do, here is 5k damage minimum. Sorry, but I think playing well should have more impact on the match.
If you're losing more than 5k health on a LGM mod that means you're actually being hit, so you're comparing the damage you take from perfect play on HA vs poor play on LGM, apples to oranges there. If you got hit the same amount of times that LGM is causing 5k dmg than you'd likely be KO'd several times over on HA, because that's more than 6 hits or eating a special.
Picking the right bot or play style is huge part of the game. How is your stance on fighting Bonecrusher who will bleed you for hitting him, or Rhinox exploding shields? Or Special 3s for that matter, since that requires playing around it too. Playing perfectly is far more than just not getting hit.
Also comparing LGM to HA is fair enough. LGM is far harder to dodge bullets, in the end is the effect of the mod on the outcome of the fight.
How is your stance on fighting Bonecrusher who will bleed you for hitting him
Generally, I like to crawl up in to a ball and cry.
I don't think BC's bleed is too strong, however with HA it's a bit busted, but that could just be because of HA being too strong blowing it out of proportion.
Whatever bot you pick, you will take minimum X damage based on the length of the fight. With high ranks, even with perfect play and bot choices, it's going to take more than 10 seconds to finish a match, which means several thousand unavoidable HP lost. We should be able to have more control over the outcome of a match. It's like letting the enemy start with a full S3 bar. Unavoidable damage you can't do anything about to mitigate it, the only mitigation choice is mv1 or grim, which brings us back to a stale meta because one mod is way stronger than any other, and like so many have said, is the only reason they get some defence wins.
We are talking about fighting Grindor here. He has some of the highest base HP and the tankiest bot in the game, the guy mitigates damage better than any other. That takes two of your arguments away right there. If you take away the damage I sustained on melee and consider how much faster i'd be able to KO any other bot, or even if I used class advantage, it's more than reasonable to say I'd bring that number down to under 30%, in line with my original estimate.
I mean, If I fought UM on HA with my IH, I would end that battle twice as fast.
I wanted to prove that HA isn't insurmountable and remove arguments due to all the factors that have been brought forth throughout this thread, and I'm confident I've done that.
To turn around and say "well it still doesn't count because of forging variables" is a cop out. It's ok to be wrong, man.
As for LGM, Dircules is right. Avoiding getting hit against that mod is much more difficult than a regular battle, and if you eat a ranged special it hurts like hell. It is comparable to HA, and in many ways superior. Exofilter is another great mod, as is nightbird mark when placed correctly with the right bot (try it on a high rank dinobot on the very last node... EVIL).
HA doesn't need a nerf. You just gotta play clean against it. If two or three 4/40 3* HA was allowed on a raid base, I could potentially battle past all them with a single bot.
You do realize terminal will never stop arguing his point till everyone agrees or goes away? He still wants harm nerfed and other mods raised, instead of simply making others mods better.
Let’s just nerf everything, remove all bot swords and guns. Let’s just have a pillow fight! Because that would be fair
When I see HA matched on their top bot before a raid, I bring MV1 prime, he has always solve this problem for me.
I worried more about Robot Resource on big SP3 bots, if defending bot has enough health to cook at least one SP3, attacker will 100% eat a SP3 from bots like IH, Megatron, Galvatron, unless attacker bring power control bots which is still hard to counter that SP3.
In a sense, a 100% SP3 is defender's guarantee to damage attacker, like HA does. To me Robot Resoure is more powerful than HA.
I think we can all at least agree that HA is way stronger than any other mod, I've fought plenty of LGM Megatrons and Ironhides, and they're only a nightmare with slow thumbs. Waspinator, on the other hand, makes me rage quit no matter what mod he's on because he's stupid and I hate him.
Moving forward, I would actually like to see the other mods buffed so that not everyone is planting three HAs, three LGMs, a random seventh mod and calling it a day. Making the three new supermods publically available in a month or two will go a ways towards shaking up the meta as well.
It kind of seems like harm accelerator is a bit balanced really in that if you use a lot of them you'll get a few extra defense wins, but take auto losses to anyone bringing an MV1. You would still use MV1 on a Grindor as well. Actually I'm kind of surprised people don't throw their accelerators (or one at least) on Ultra Magnus or something. I have no idea if that even hurts (nobody does it really, even though most people have stopped wasting it on reds at least), but HA on anything else is actually what I prefer to see since I have the MV1 to bring. That is not even considering Grimlock.
It kind of seems like harm accelerator is a bit balanced really in that if you use a lot of them you'll get a few extra defense wins, but take auto losses to anyone bringing an MV1. You would still use MV1 on a Grindor as well. Actually I'm kind of surprised people don't throw their accelerators (or one at least) on Ultra Magnus or something. I have no idea if that even hurts (nobody does it really, even though most people have stopped wasting it on reds at least), but HA on anything else is actually what I prefer to see since I have the MV1 to bring. That is not even considering Grimlock.
We are talking about fighting Grindor here. He has some of the highest base HP and the tankiest bot in the game, the guy mitigates damage better than any other. That takes two of your arguments away right there. If you take away the damage I sustained on melee and consider how much faster i'd be able to KO any other bot, or even if I used class advantage, it's more than reasonable to say I'd bring that number down to under 30%, in line with my original estimate.
I mean, If I fought UM on HA with my IH, I would end that battle twice as fast.
I wanted to prove that HA isn't insurmountable and remove arguments due to all the factors that have been brought forth throughout this thread, and I'm confident I've done that.
To turn around and say "well it still doesn't count because of forging variables" is a cop out. It's ok to be wrong, man.
I'm just going by the numbers you quoted, "can range anywhere from 15-30% life lost", 45% is outside of your range by quite a lot. You took 28% against Motor when the mod damage was half, scale the mod you took 56%. Do you have another excuse why that one wasn't in your range either?
I never said it doesn't count because of variables, I said lets refer to the actual damage number instead of converting it to a % which has two different meanings for two different bots, the damage number doesn't change, so it's easier to understand what you're actually saying, it's just clearer. We're still talking about the same thing, but without any ambiguity.
So like instead of 15% as your minimum, how much damage are we actually talking, like 1500 damage? Because that means finishing the fight in around 10-13 seconds, which is impossible with the amount of health the rank 4 bot and mod has (around 13k?).
We are talking about fighting Grindor here. He has some of the highest base HP and the tankiest bot in the game, the guy mitigates damage better than any other. That takes two of your arguments away right there. If you take away the damage I sustained on melee and consider how much faster i'd be able to KO any other bot, or even if I used class advantage, it's more than reasonable to say I'd bring that number down to under 30%, in line with my original estimate.
I mean, If I fought UM on HA with my IH, I would end that battle twice as fast.
I wanted to prove that HA isn't insurmountable and remove arguments due to all the factors that have been brought forth throughout this thread, and I'm confident I've done that.
To turn around and say "well it still doesn't count because of forging variables" is a cop out. It's ok to be wrong, man.
I'm just going by the numbers you quoted, "can range anywhere from 15-30% life lost", 45% is outside of your range by quite a lot. You took 28% against Motor when the mod damage was half, scale the mod you took 56%. Do you have another excuse why that one wasn't in your range either?
I never said it doesn't count because of variables, I said lets refer to the actual damage number instead of converting it to a % which has two different meanings for two different bots, the damage number doesn't change, so it's easier to understand what you're actually saying, it's just clearer. We're still talking about the same thing, but without any ambiguity.
So like instead of 15% as your minimum, how much damage are we actually talking, like 1500 damage? Because that means finishing the fight in around 10-13 seconds, which is impossible with the amount of health the rank 4 bot and mod has (around 13k?).
Yes, you can. My Ironhide can do upwards of 2k damage on heavy crits plus burn on a tactician. If you lock UM in a heavy spam pattern you can end the battle in 15 seconds.
And it's not hard to do if you understand how to throw confirmed range hits on a downed bot. This is one of the reasons using class advantage is so important on high level raids whenever possible against HA. It reduces your exposure to the mod by a significant amount of time.
As for Motormaster, I previously stated motor would lose you 50-75% of your hp on a 4/40 HA.. Seems pretty accurate to me, no?
For someone who is so particular about minute details you sure seem to conventiently omit them when it serves your purpose
After all this I have doubts the end times are near, haha!
Yes, you can. My Ironhide can do upwards of 2k damage on heavy crits plus burn on a tactician. If you lock UM in a heavy spam pattern you can end the battle in 15 seconds.
And it's not hard to do if you understand how to throw confirmed range hits on a downed bot. This is one of the reasons using class advantage is so important on high level raids whenever possible against HA.
As for Motormaster, I previously stated motor would lose you 50-75% of your hp on a 4/40 HA.. Seems pretty accurate to me, no?
For someone who is so particular about minute details you sure seem to conventiently omit them when it serves your purpose
Um, Motormaster, you said rank 5 is 50-75% but the 56% is a rank 4.
I'm really confused man, I think you're mixing up and confusing all your numbers.
So I don't think I'm omitting details, because it's the wrong rank? If it's only 15-30% except for Motor, Grindor, and I guess BC because you mentioned getting KO'd before? It's not really 15-30% is it? How many exceptions and outliers do we have to the range?
Let's just talk straight damage numbers instead of percent, I'm finding it hard to trust any numbers you give now because they keep changing and your examples aren't lining up with your initial assumptions.
Now you're saying you're going to land 4-5 heavies in 15 seconds?
Yes, you can. My Ironhide can do upwards of 2k damage on heavy crits plus burn on a tactician. If you lock UM in a heavy spam pattern you can end the battle in 15 seconds.
And it's not hard to do if you understand how to throw confirmed range hits on a downed bot. This is one of the reasons using class advantage is so important on high level raids whenever possible against HA.
As for Motormaster, I previously stated motor would lose you 50-75% of your hp on a 4/40 HA.. Seems pretty accurate to me, no?
For someone who is so particular about minute details you sure seem to conventiently omit them when it serves your purpose
Um, Motormaster, you said rank 5 is 50-75% but the 56% is a rank 4.
I'm really confused man, I think you're mixing up and confusing all your numbers.
So I don't think I'm omitting details, because it's the wrong rank? If it's only 15-30% except for Motor, Grindor, and I guess BC because you mentioned getting KO'd before? It's not really 15-30% is it? How many exceptions and outliers do we have to the range?
Let's just talk straight damage numbers instead of percent, I'm finding it hard to trust any numbers you give now because they keep changing and your examples aren't lining up with your initial assumptions.
Now you're saying you're going to land 4-5 heavies in 15 seconds?
Ok. Straight numbers.
Yes you can land 4-5 heavy attacks in 15 seconds, it is not hard to do. Happens all the time, and anyone using ranged heavy attackers knows this.
If I'm doing 1500-2k damage on heavies with IH plus burn damage on UM, who you say should have 13k HP with a maxed mod.. how long do you think it takes to spam him dead with heavy attacks?
What does it take, 3 seconds per heavy attack? At full pop, I'll kill UM with 5-7 ranged attacks.
That means I'll expose myself to HA for 15-20 seconds, which puts me in exactly the range I've been talking about this entire thread.
Yes you can land 4-5 heavy attacks in 15 seconds, it is not hard to do. Happens all the time, and anyone using ranged heavy attackers knows this.
If I'm doing 1500-2k damage on heavies with IH plus burn damage on UM, who you say should have 13k HP with a maxed mod.. how long do you think it takes to spam him dead with heavy attacks?
What does it take, 3 seconds per heavy attack? At full pop, I'll kill UM with 5-7 ranged attacks.
That means I'll expose myself to HA for 15-20 seconds, which puts me in exactly the range I've been talking about this entire thread.
Good day, sir.
You said crits do upwards of 2k, so your scenario is you fire a heavy as soon as the fight starts which doesn't get dodged, it also crits, and you follow up with a chain of at least 4 more unavoidable heavies that all crit? I think we're kind of stretching things a bit here into impossibilities.
Also, I have IH and I think you're mixing up numbers again and using extra temporary crit damage buff he gets after being hit. Because my crits are approx 1500 with the buff and 900 without, so impossible seems fairly certain here.
Yes you can land 4-5 heavy attacks in 15 seconds, it is not hard to do. Happens all the time, and anyone using ranged heavy attackers knows this.
If I'm doing 1500-2k damage on heavies with IH plus burn damage on UM, who you say should have 13k HP with a maxed mod.. how long do you think it takes to spam him dead with heavy attacks?
What does it take, 3 seconds per heavy attack? At full pop, I'll kill UM with 5-7 ranged attacks.
That means I'll expose myself to HA for 15-20 seconds, which puts me in exactly the range I've been talking about this entire thread.
Good day, sir.
You said crits do upwards of 2k, so your scenario is you fire a heavy as soon as the fight starts which doesn't get dodged, it also crits, and you follow up with a chain of at least 4 more unavoidable heavies that all crit? I think we're kind of stretching things a bit here into impossibilities.
Also, I have IH and I think you're mixing up numbers again and using extra temporary crit damage buff he gets after being hit. Because my crits are approx 1500 with the buff and 900 without, so impossible seems fairly certain here.
I have a forge 100 4/40 IH.
My numbers are spot on, and the scenario I've detailed is actually common. +167% to attack rating at forge 100. We are talking a total attack rating over 1300 in a class advantage fight.
Tacticians stand like pylons in front of IH heavies if you know what you're doing. When the fight starts, use one light attack, then launch a heavy whether he blocks or not.
If it lands, throw a well timed basic ranged as he stands up to force a block, then throw a heavy. Rinse, repeat. Easy to do.
Keep trying, but you know I'm right and you can't admit it, lol.
You look at it as being glass half empty that you only got hit by some basic melee. I think it's glass half full that you escaped without getting hit by a special with perforate while rushing to get him down before HA gets ya. Neither is a given.
I wanted to prove that HA isn't insurmountable and remove arguments due to all the factors that have been brought forth throughout this thread, and I'm confident I've done that.
I don't think anyone said it's insurmountable(could be mistaken). You threw out 15-30%, and s bunch of us think that's off, especially the low side of it. General feeling is that it is relatively overpowered in relation to other mods. I've personally got no issue with strengthening others instead of weakening HA.
As for LGM, Dircules is right. Avoiding getting hit against that mod is much more difficult than a regular battle, and if you eat a ranged special it hurts like hell.
I call total BS. Maxed 3* HA is way harder to deal with than a maxed 3* LGM. Raiding against LGM = play carefully and don't get hit. Raiding against HA = try to play perfectly, don't get hit, and you can't take your time. HA forces you to try and strike a balance between two opposite extremes (aggressive attacks and conservative defense). LGM forces you to play more carefully. HA makes your bot stats really important. Perfect play against LGM means your bot stats don't matter at all (other than timer).
Unless I just happen to suck way more than you do against HA AND also happen to be way way above average vs LGM, your argument is completely wrong.
Comments
R4 bots on 3* HA aren't nearly as common as you'd think.. as I said previously, the vast majority are r3. I've actually been raiding a ton just to find one, unsuccessfully lol.
Ok... So after all this time, I finally found an r4 bot on an HA, but it was a 4* HA... Which means damage was 480%. But let's see what this looks like, since it was at least on a Motormaster:
And the end result:
Again... 28% damage taken on a perfect round. It's reasonable to say 50% damage is what a 3* HA would end up causing me (which was my initial estimate vs Motormaster if you recall).
I will continue to try and find a 4/40 HA on an r4 bot just to put this to rest.
The mod rank is wrong. One of my main points is the new ranks give way more hp, attack and bleed %. The whole point is about because of the new rank, it needs a nerf becauase it's too over powered.
The rank 1 mod gives like 1000 health while the rank 2 gives 2700-3000 health. There's no way you're finishing the fight in the same time or less, plus having to bait specials.
The bleed alone is 100% more, 924% to 480%, plus the huge attack buff for 4*/3* rank 2/4 boosting all the blocked chip damage.
Bleed ticks twice per second. Against your enemy, 4598.4 over 60 seconds is 76 per second, 38 per tick. 924% is 8851.92. 147 per second! 73 per tick! 147 dps is insane! That's like getting hit with a ranged attack every second for the entire fight.
You've missed the point having the wrong mod rank completely.
Even with all this information, it's indisputable that HA does far more damage than every other mod combined, which means it needs a nerf.
But I must say that Nightbird works in a similar way. A 100 sig 2* Nightbird is more harmful than a maxed 4*.
I still don't see the need of nerfing HA. Buffing others should be a logical move. For the moment, RR and Exo are the next best thing found in 20000+ bases.
Duped Security mod should add more armor buffs. Like one armor per special landed or received. Duped Repair mod should imitate the range repair effect in Bee's Gauntlet. Just spitballing some ideas.
Balancing out the mods would make raiding overall a bit more interesting. It's pretty boring dealing with multiple HAs (dont get me started on the q bases with 3* ha on all three main nodes).
They already fixed that by making it so that all you have to do is not get hit by the special. No additional bleed stacks then.
Completely agree with those that have said that they really just need to make other mods more viable and buff them. Base defense is already poor as it is. Removing an effective mod just kills what base defense there is. As it is, I can almost just right thumb through all the bases I face. Having to actually put a little effort into beating a base would be nice for a change.
Well sorry, if one mod is carrying an entire base and the only reason we can get a defence win sometimes then the mod is absurdly overpowered.
You can't just have one super powered mod and all the rest are trash. One mod doing 90% of the work right now is stupid, broken and unbalanced. It's not healthy for the raid meta, it's stale and it's not fun. You can stack every other mod on top of each other and their combined strength still wouldn't equal the massive damage that HA dishes out.
Unless someone can make an argument that HA doesn't do an absurd amount of damage comparative to every other mod, then some kind of balancing is desperately needed. Buff others up, nerf others down, meet somewhere in the middle, whatever (and I've said it before in this thread, so Jon maybe try to read first before shooting your mouth off with innane comments about 'crying nerf over everything').
I don't think anyone can argue that mods are currently balanced. I think we can all agree on that. Therefore, we need some mod balancing, and urgently, because it's not a little bit stronger than every other mod, it's massively stronger.
Depends on your definition of absurd. I am of the opinion that the other mods are absurdly under powered and HA is the only one carrying its weight.
Am pleased with some of the new mods though. I've got a Tech Console stuck to Ratchet half the time and it catches people off guard. It doesn't do damage by itself, but it boosts the bot in all the right ways. So it really is not JUST damage that makes or breaks a mod. Laser Guidance is still somewhat decent on crazy shooters like Movie Megatron.
The real issue is that the other mods aren't even worth the time it takes to look at them.
Ideally, I'd like to see HA brought down and the other mods brought up.. and an entire overhaul to the raid system, like linked nodes, synergies, item boxes, more paths, spread the raid chips out evenly again, leaderboard reset every 2 weeks, basically a competitive design your own mini-spotlight as the ultimate goal would be awesome, like a custom map maker that other players can play through.
1) I did not use class advantage
2) I got hit 6 times by basic melee
3) It was Grindor, which takes extra time due to the heavy armor.
Let's see how it went:
Started off already damaged, but that makes no difference, we can treat as if I was full on hp:
Here are the final battle stats:
Now.. here is the result of hp loss.. even with the 6 melee hits, I only lost 5415hp.. so let's make this a round number and say in a perfect battle I would have lost 5000 HP, even though i'm sure I would have technically lost even less than that if I had a way to know exactly how much each melee hit took off me:
At 5000hp down from 12004 max, I came in at 42% life lost. If you want to stay with the full 5415 damage, it's still only 45% damage total.
I think that was pretty accurate original estimate on my part as to how much HP it takes to get through 4/40 bots on a 4/40 HA mod.
Let's finally put this one to rest @Terminal
The numbers do not lie. Less than 50% life lost can be done, and I proved it without even needing a perfect round.
I lose more HP to a 4/40 LGM on a regular basis than I do to HA on most battles.
As a matter of fact, I do not @Dircules but I'm glad you asked for clarification!
I have basic masteries only. Haven't even unlocked any of the cool ones:
Doesn't line up at all with what you said before:
You said a 4* rank 5 is 30-40%, 4* R4 is 15-30% and 4* R3 is 10-15% or even less than 10%.
So 45% is not really close to "15-30%", it's higher than your quote for an R5. So that doesn't seem like a pretty accurate original estimate. In addition, I think % is not helpful because the HP range can vary so much based on bot class and forging.so your 40% is over 50% for an unforged bot, it changes the percentage too much. Let's talk concrete damage numbers instead.
You've just shown that playing perfectly still causes you to take 5000 damage. 5k damage is a pretty insane punishment when you play without fault. No mod should be able to do 5000 damage to a player that doesn't make any mistakes. How is that fun, fair or challenging experience? It's just stressful. It doesn't matter what you do, here is 5k damage minimum. Sorry, but I think playing well should have more impact on the match.
If you're losing more than 5k health on a LGM mod that means you're actually being hit, so you're comparing the damage you take from perfect play on HA vs poor play on LGM, apples to oranges there. If you got hit the same amount of times that LGM is causing 5k dmg than you'd likely be KO'd several times over on HA, because that's more than 6 hits or eating a special.
Picking the right bot or play style is huge part of the game. How is your stance on fighting Bonecrusher who will bleed you for hitting him, or Rhinox exploding shields? Or Special 3s for that matter, since that requires playing around it too. Playing perfectly is far more than just not getting hit.
Also comparing LGM to HA is fair enough. LGM is far harder to dodge bullets, in the end is the effect of the mod on the outcome of the fight.
Generally, I like to crawl up in to a ball and cry.
I don't think BC's bleed is too strong, however with HA it's a bit busted, but that could just be because of HA being too strong blowing it out of proportion.
Whatever bot you pick, you will take minimum X damage based on the length of the fight. With high ranks, even with perfect play and bot choices, it's going to take more than 10 seconds to finish a match, which means several thousand unavoidable HP lost. We should be able to have more control over the outcome of a match. It's like letting the enemy start with a full S3 bar. Unavoidable damage you can't do anything about to mitigate it, the only mitigation choice is mv1 or grim, which brings us back to a stale meta because one mod is way stronger than any other, and like so many have said, is the only reason they get some defence wins.
We are talking about fighting Grindor here. He has some of the highest base HP and the tankiest bot in the game, the guy mitigates damage better than any other. That takes two of your arguments away right there. If you take away the damage I sustained on melee and consider how much faster i'd be able to KO any other bot, or even if I used class advantage, it's more than reasonable to say I'd bring that number down to under 30%, in line with my original estimate.
I mean, If I fought UM on HA with my IH, I would end that battle twice as fast.
I wanted to prove that HA isn't insurmountable and remove arguments due to all the factors that have been brought forth throughout this thread, and I'm confident I've done that.
To turn around and say "well it still doesn't count because of forging variables" is a cop out. It's ok to be wrong, man.
As for LGM, Dircules is right. Avoiding getting hit against that mod is much more difficult than a regular battle, and if you eat a ranged special it hurts like hell. It is comparable to HA, and in many ways superior. Exofilter is another great mod, as is nightbird mark when placed correctly with the right bot (try it on a high rank dinobot on the very last node... EVIL).
HA doesn't need a nerf. You just gotta play clean against it. If two or three 4/40 3* HA was allowed on a raid base, I could potentially battle past all them with a single bot.
That doesn't seem overpowered to me.
Let’s just nerf everything, remove all bot swords and guns. Let’s just have a pillow fight! Because that would be fair
I worried more about Robot Resource on big SP3 bots, if defending bot has enough health to cook at least one SP3, attacker will 100% eat a SP3 from bots like IH, Megatron, Galvatron, unless attacker bring power control bots which is still hard to counter that SP3.
In a sense, a 100% SP3 is defender's guarantee to damage attacker, like HA does. To me Robot Resoure is more powerful than HA.
Moving forward, I would actually like to see the other mods buffed so that not everyone is planting three HAs, three LGMs, a random seventh mod and calling it a day. Making the three new supermods publically available in a month or two will go a ways towards shaking up the meta as well.
Yea even HA with UM, MV1 can just grind it out.
I'm just going by the numbers you quoted, "can range anywhere from 15-30% life lost", 45% is outside of your range by quite a lot. You took 28% against Motor when the mod damage was half, scale the mod you took 56%. Do you have another excuse why that one wasn't in your range either?
I never said it doesn't count because of variables, I said lets refer to the actual damage number instead of converting it to a % which has two different meanings for two different bots, the damage number doesn't change, so it's easier to understand what you're actually saying, it's just clearer. We're still talking about the same thing, but without any ambiguity.
So like instead of 15% as your minimum, how much damage are we actually talking, like 1500 damage? Because that means finishing the fight in around 10-13 seconds, which is impossible with the amount of health the rank 4 bot and mod has (around 13k?).
Yes, you can. My Ironhide can do upwards of 2k damage on heavy crits plus burn on a tactician. If you lock UM in a heavy spam pattern you can end the battle in 15 seconds.
And it's not hard to do if you understand how to throw confirmed range hits on a downed bot. This is one of the reasons using class advantage is so important on high level raids whenever possible against HA. It reduces your exposure to the mod by a significant amount of time.
As for Motormaster, I previously stated motor would lose you 50-75% of your hp on a 4/40 HA.. Seems pretty accurate to me, no?
For someone who is so particular about minute details you sure seem to conventiently omit them when it serves your purpose
After all this I have doubts the end times are near, haha!
Um, Motormaster, you said rank 5 is 50-75% but the 56% is a rank 4.
I'm really confused man, I think you're mixing up and confusing all your numbers.
So I don't think I'm omitting details, because it's the wrong rank? If it's only 15-30% except for Motor, Grindor, and I guess BC because you mentioned getting KO'd before? It's not really 15-30% is it? How many exceptions and outliers do we have to the range?
Let's just talk straight damage numbers instead of percent, I'm finding it hard to trust any numbers you give now because they keep changing and your examples aren't lining up with your initial assumptions.
Now you're saying you're going to land 4-5 heavies in 15 seconds?
Ok. Straight numbers.
Yes you can land 4-5 heavy attacks in 15 seconds, it is not hard to do. Happens all the time, and anyone using ranged heavy attackers knows this.
If I'm doing 1500-2k damage on heavies with IH plus burn damage on UM, who you say should have 13k HP with a maxed mod.. how long do you think it takes to spam him dead with heavy attacks?
What does it take, 3 seconds per heavy attack? At full pop, I'll kill UM with 5-7 ranged attacks.
That means I'll expose myself to HA for 15-20 seconds, which puts me in exactly the range I've been talking about this entire thread.
Good day, sir.
You said crits do upwards of 2k, so your scenario is you fire a heavy as soon as the fight starts which doesn't get dodged, it also crits, and you follow up with a chain of at least 4 more unavoidable heavies that all crit? I think we're kind of stretching things a bit here into impossibilities.
Also, I have IH and I think you're mixing up numbers again and using extra temporary crit damage buff he gets after being hit. Because my crits are approx 1500 with the buff and 900 without, so impossible seems fairly certain here.
I have a forge 100 4/40 IH.
My numbers are spot on, and the scenario I've detailed is actually common. +167% to attack rating at forge 100. We are talking a total attack rating over 1300 in a class advantage fight.
Tacticians stand like pylons in front of IH heavies if you know what you're doing. When the fight starts, use one light attack, then launch a heavy whether he blocks or not.
If it lands, throw a well timed basic ranged as he stands up to force a block, then throw a heavy. Rinse, repeat. Easy to do.
Keep trying, but you know I'm right and you can't admit it, lol.
You look at it as being glass half empty that you only got hit by some basic melee. I think it's glass half full that you escaped without getting hit by a special with perforate while rushing to get him down before HA gets ya. Neither is a given.
I don't think anyone said it's insurmountable(could be mistaken). You threw out 15-30%, and s bunch of us think that's off, especially the low side of it. General feeling is that it is relatively overpowered in relation to other mods. I've personally got no issue with strengthening others instead of weakening HA.
I call total BS. Maxed 3* HA is way harder to deal with than a maxed 3* LGM. Raiding against LGM = play carefully and don't get hit. Raiding against HA = try to play perfectly, don't get hit, and you can't take your time. HA forces you to try and strike a balance between two opposite extremes (aggressive attacks and conservative defense). LGM forces you to play more carefully. HA makes your bot stats really important. Perfect play against LGM means your bot stats don't matter at all (other than timer).
Unless I just happen to suck way more than you do against HA AND also happen to be way way above average vs LGM, your argument is completely wrong.