A suggestion for Rhinox

ManthroManthro Posts: 2,733
edited August 26 in General Discussion
Rhinox is a bit of a tragedy at the upper echelon of AM difficulty.

The nature of his skillset requires frequent heavy attacks, but as everyone knows, the window to dodge is miniscule, making him quite the liability no matter how good you are.

I propose a very simple adjustment to his skillset in order to make him more viable:

Trade his melee damage buff on bleeding enemies for one of two things:

1) chance to stun on basic melee per bleed debuff

OR

2) chance to trigger unstoppable on basic melee per bleed debuff.

This would allow for the playstyle required to use him effectively, which is ending most combos with a heavy attack.

As it stands, players are generally forced to use partial combos and break off, for fear of getting violated by turbo charged ranged attacks, or the AI's near precognitive anticipation of a backstep or heavy following a combo.

Care would need to be taken on how the stun works, so as not to bring a game breaking stun lock loop into play, which would go all too well with his power lock/burn.

The unstoppable idea feels like it offers a way out of getting caught by a complete counter combo KO, while being balanced in that you may still take a bit of damage from a poor heavy attack launch.

Both have merit

Thoughts?
«1

Comments

  • 小龙女小龙女 Posts: 640
    edited August 26
    Rhinox is too outdated. Completely ditched him. He is one of worst tech bot ever created.

    1. Shield is almost completely useless. It’s based on opponent attack rating. 20k attack rating bot means u take 20*0.8=16k damage (lower with armor?)

    2. You can use heavy but have to be exteamly careful whereas with rollout or ranged heavy bots u can “almost always” get away safely

    3. His bleed is a meh. Shockwave deals 3 shocks with 1 power bar. He does how many? Where is his energy damage? Against physical resistance can go cry (jetfire for example)

    There is only very few selected ok match up for him in AM, where he can perform ok.

    Damage? Barely any

    Shield? Useless

    Hp and armor? Mediocre

    Utility? Somewhat with power lock

    Synergy? Meh

    Better alternative? Mirage, shockwave, wj, jetfire, and maybe more...

    Feels like power lock is only reason to use him ever, so good suggestion to try to make his power lock more approachable. Still, his shielding and damage is too meh to be worthy.

    There really isn’t any robo tronus or robo anything currently in AM to require a power lock bot.
  • ManthroManthro Posts: 2,733
    小龙女 wrote: »
    Rhinox is too outdated. Completely ditched him. He is one of worst tech bot ever created.

    1. Shield is almost completely useless. It’s based on opponent attack rating. 20k attack rating bot means u take 20*0.8=16k damage (lower with armor?)

    I disagree here. Once awakened, he caps damage at 60%

    That's pretty significant.
  • KillMasterCKillMasterC Posts: 2,785
    Are there any bots with 20k attack?
  • ManthroManthro Posts: 2,733
    Are there any bots with 20k attack?

    Yes. They exist at max AM difficulty
  • DonApisDonApis Posts: 525
    小龙女 wrote: »
    Rhinox is too outdated. Completely ditched him. He is one of worst tech bot ever created.

    1. Shield is almost completely useless. It’s based on opponent attack rating. 20k attack rating bot means u take 20*0.8=16k damage (lower with armor?)

    2. You can use heavy but have to be exteamly careful whereas with rollout or ranged heavy bots u can “almost always” get away safely

    3. His bleed is a meh. Shockwave deals 3 shocks with 1 power bar. He does how many? Where is his energy damage? Against physical resistance can go cry (jetfire for example)

    There is only very few selected ok match up for him in AM, where he can perform ok.

    Damage? Barely any

    Shield? Useless

    Hp and armor? Mediocre

    Utility? Somewhat with power lock

    Synergy? Meh

    Better alternative? Mirage, shockwave, wj, jetfire, and maybe more...

    Feels like power lock is only reason to use him ever, so good suggestion to try to make his power lock more approachable. Still, his shielding and damage is too meh to be worthy.

    There really isn’t any robo tronus or robo anything currently in AM to require a power lock bot.

    This thread is to discuss how to make rhinox better. Most of forum user already knew you did not like rhinox.
  • BlackRazakBlackRazak Posts: 2,398
    Rhinox (my personal fave tech in 4* and 5* duped versions) is potentially incredible.
    His ability, skillset and buffs/shields/bleeds/lock make him a jack of all trades... But his hit accuracy IS abysmal.
    With this guy, a missed heavy sometimes sets the tone for the entire match.
    No bot matches his inconsistency (OK, maybe KB SP1 or Galvatron Dark Burn) so bringing him to difficult AM or 70K raids is a gamble.
    Which makes him fun. But infuriating in equal measure.

    Would love it if his heavy was slightly improved!
  • Bazzatron1979Bazzatron1979 Posts: 210
    edited August 26
    If you made that any melee hit triggered his sig but made it possible to burn the shields off safely with ranged shots , would that be a fair compromise and improvement ?

    We all agree that his heavy has a problem - the jump back needs to be further or faster so he has a chance to dodge retaliation; maybe make it impossible to dodge the heavy by going backwards, only by sidestepping?

    Also it would be nice to get the melee bonus per stack of bleed instead of just when opponent is bleeding .....

    Also , once awakened, scale his shield protection with rank eg 60%/50%/40%/30%/20%

    Is any of that sensible or would it be too powerful and unbalancing ?
  • 小龙女小龙女 Posts: 640
    @DonApis I was simply saying making his power lock and heavy more approachable is in the right direction, but it isn’t enough.

    Btw, nobody will invest in his signature, cuz if you get hit u dead in AM, would u care about that 1% maybe 2% shock damage
    (Kinda like how shockwave signature is useless. It simply is too risky to use undo. )
  • Bntyhntr3232_Bntyhntr3232_ Posts: 2,795
    What I would do to make Rhinox better...and away we go!


    Heavy changes: 20% faster and gains a defense buff for 3 seconds (so if he DOES get hit it isn't too major)

    His shielding has a 5% chance to not disappear when struck

    SP1: if he doesn't inflict bleed he will get the unstoppable buff for 6 seconds But if he does inflict bleed he gets Crit rate up for 6 seconds

    SP2: The blast at the end has a 50% chance to inflict shock for 4 seconds (if it already inflicts shock then increase the chance to do so by 5%)
    Rhinox gets Primals armor buff for 3 seconds for every bleed inflicted (up to 12 seconds)

    SP3: If Rhinox has backfire instead of him taking damage the opponent takes the damage. He has a lower chance to inflict bleed but a chance to inflict armor break for 12 seconds

    Rhinox has 60%+ defense (to make him a Extremely reliable bot)


    I find Rhinox outdated and not very useful so I decided to state how I would buff him enough so that even I would use him
  • Hijacker2531Hijacker2531 Posts: 524
    What I would do to make Rhinox better...and away we go!


    Heavy changes: 20% faster and gains a defense buff for 3 seconds (so if he DOES get hit it isn't too major)

    His shielding has a 5% chance to not disappear when struck

    SP1: if he doesn't inflict bleed he will get the unstoppable buff for 6 seconds But if he does inflict bleed he gets Crit rate up for 6 seconds

    SP2: The blast at the end has a 50% chance to inflict shock for 4 seconds (if it already inflicts shock then increase the chance to do so by 5%)
    Rhinox gets Primals armor buff for 3 seconds for every bleed inflicted (up to 12 seconds)

    SP3: If Rhinox has backfire instead of him taking damage the opponent takes the damage. He has a lower chance to inflict bleed but a chance to inflict armor break for 12 seconds

    Rhinox has 60%+ defense (to make him a Extremely reliable bot)


    I find Rhinox outdated and not very useful so I decided to state how I would buff him enough so that even I would use him

    Hmmmmm... I don't know what to think of this. 60% is a lot of armor. Plus the shields... You'd barely be able to do any damage.
  • ManthroManthro Posts: 2,733
    edited August 26
    What I would do to make Rhinox better...and away we go!


    Heavy changes: 20% faster and gains a defense buff for 3 seconds (so if he DOES get hit it isn't too major)

    His shielding has a 5% chance to not disappear when struck

    SP1: if he doesn't inflict bleed he will get the unstoppable buff for 6 seconds But if he does inflict bleed he gets Crit rate up for 6 seconds

    SP2: The blast at the end has a 50% chance to inflict shock for 4 seconds (if it already inflicts shock then increase the chance to do so by 5%)
    Rhinox gets Primals armor buff for 3 seconds for every bleed inflicted (up to 12 seconds)

    SP3: If Rhinox has backfire instead of him taking damage the opponent takes the damage. He has a lower chance to inflict bleed but a chance to inflict armor break for 12 seconds

    Rhinox has 60%+ defense (to make him a Extremely reliable bot)


    I find Rhinox outdated and not very useful so I decided to state how I would buff him enough so that even I would use him

    This is way too extreme.

    When you think about buffing a bot, you need to take into consideration what it will be like to fight against him, not just the benefits of these buffs when using him.

    Lastly, Rhinox isn't even close to outdated. He just needs a tweak. His skillset is very effective overall, he is like a Swiss Army knife. Does a little bit of everything, especially when you take his synergies into account.
  • Bntyhntr3232_Bntyhntr3232_ Posts: 2,795
    Manthro wrote: »
    What I would do to make Rhinox better...and away we go!


    Heavy changes: 20% faster and gains a defense buff for 3 seconds (so if he DOES get hit it isn't too major)

    His shielding has a 5% chance to not disappear when struck

    SP1: if he doesn't inflict bleed he will get the unstoppable buff for 6 seconds But if he does inflict bleed he gets Crit rate up for 6 seconds

    SP2: The blast at the end has a 50% chance to inflict shock for 4 seconds (if it already inflicts shock then increase the chance to do so by 5%)
    Rhinox gets Primals armor buff for 3 seconds for every bleed inflicted (up to 12 seconds)

    SP3: If Rhinox has backfire instead of him taking damage the opponent takes the damage. He has a lower chance to inflict bleed but a chance to inflict armor break for 12 seconds

    Rhinox has 60%+ defense (to make him a Extremely reliable bot)


    I find Rhinox outdated and not very useful so I decided to state how I would buff him enough so that even I would use him

    This is way too extreme.

    When you think about buffing a bot, you need to take into consideration what it will be like to fight against him, not just the benefits of these buffs when using him.

    Lastly, Rhinox isn't even close to outdated. He just needs a tweak. His skillset is very effective overall, he is like a Swiss Army knife. Does a little bit of everything, especially when you take his synergies into account.

    You're probably right...maybe the 60%+ defense should be lowered to 20%+ and the 5% chance for the shielding to not go away should be lowered to 1%
  • NightpathNightpath Posts: 476
    Manthro wrote: »
    What I would do to make Rhinox better...and away we go!


    Heavy changes: 20% faster and gains a defense buff for 3 seconds (so if he DOES get hit it isn't too major)

    His shielding has a 5% chance to not disappear when struck

    SP1: if he doesn't inflict bleed he will get the unstoppable buff for 6 seconds But if he does inflict bleed he gets Crit rate up for 6 seconds

    SP2: The blast at the end has a 50% chance to inflict shock for 4 seconds (if it already inflicts shock then increase the chance to do so by 5%)
    Rhinox gets Primals armor buff for 3 seconds for every bleed inflicted (up to 12 seconds)

    SP3: If Rhinox has backfire instead of him taking damage the opponent takes the damage. He has a lower chance to inflict bleed but a chance to inflict armor break for 12 seconds

    Rhinox has 60%+ defense (to make him a Extremely reliable bot)


    I find Rhinox outdated and not very useful so I decided to state how I would buff him enough so that even I would use him

    This is way too extreme.

    When you think about buffing a bot, you need to take into consideration what it will be like to fight against him, not just the benefits of these buffs when using him.

    Lastly, Rhinox isn't even close to outdated. He just needs a tweak. His skillset is very effective overall, he is like a Swiss Army knife. Does a little bit of everything, especially when you take his synergies into account.

    This is it in a nutshell. Rhinox really only needs a small adjustment to alleviate his abysmal hit percentage with his heavy attack.

    Plus... if a bot can be fixed with a very minor tweak, requiring much less programming man-hours to implement.... I imagine it's much more likely that Kabam would actually make the change.
  • Mr_WonderfulMr_Wonderful Posts: 741
    Seems like everyone who wants to change his sp1 is forgetting something. It nullifies attack and melee buffs. And inflicts a bleed for the audacity of wanting to hit hard. A lengthy bleed at that, which gives him plenty time to make use of his increased damage to bleeding bots. Wanting it to bleed when there’s no nullify is like asking his bleeds to work against grimlock. It’s too much.

    Why the hate for his shields as well? It’s a great safeguard. Would you rather he didn’t have them?

    He can dish out bleeds on normal ranged. Yes they aren’t arcee level of bleeds but still for so much utility you’ve got to offer balance. At least he’s got it. His sp2 needs no changing either. Again, multiple bleeds from an easy source.

    Rhinox is meant to be a defensive tank. That’s what he’s for. Difficult to fight against. You have your back to the wall, your taking damage from that sp2. Bring a melee buff based bot and he’ll punish you for it.

    Like all BW bots he’s more difficult than other genre’s to fight perfectly against, in comparison. All BW bots have a niche that make them difficult. Why should he be any different? He’s perfectly fine as he is. Nothing needs to change with him.
  • Red_EyesRed_Eyes Posts: 884
    I agree with maybe making some adjustments to his heavy. It's a key part of his kit and it's pretty annoying when the enemy just casually backsteps out of the way even against the edge when, according to Kabam's tips, we are supposed to be more likely to hit with heavies there. Then of course, with the nature of Rhinox's heavy, the enemy has a very easy counter. if they can't or don't want to adjust the physics of his heavy maybe make his Power Lock longer so it's more worthwhile to heavy and so there's less urgency to heavy for a Power Lock.

    Otherwise, I think everything else is fine.
  • SynthwaveSynthwave Posts: 981
    Aside from his heavy problem, I always thought he needed a more player-friendly sig, like this one:

    SHIELD SHUNT - Rhinox re-directs all the remaining power from his Shields to his chain guns. Rhinox gains X% Ranged Damage and X% chance to Bleed for every active Shield re-directed to his guns for X seconds. Shields return in 15 seconds. (Hold down block for 1 second to redistribute any shields currently active to Rhinox's chain guns).


  • ManthroManthro Posts: 2,733
    Synthwave wrote: »
    Aside from his heavy problem, I always thought he needed a more player-friendly sig, like this one:

    SHIELD SHUNT - Rhinox re-directs all the remaining power from his Shields to his chain guns. Rhinox gains X% Ranged Damage and X% chance to Bleed for every active Shield re-directed to his guns for X seconds. Shields return in 15 seconds. (Hold down block for 1 second to redistribute any shields currently active to Rhinox's chain guns).


    I like this idea. Also covers the potential loss of the melee damage buff if kabam ever decides to take one of my ideas in revamping his heavy mechanic into play.
  • Red_EyesRed_Eyes Posts: 884
    edited August 26
    I'm honestly not crazy about the blocking to change modes mechanic, that's one of the things that bothers me about Hound. When I'm in the middle of an important fight: 1) I don't really want to sit there blocking, increasing my chances of being hit and 2) I don't like the idea of the mode I want changing because I was forced to block in an emergency situation. Then I have to go through the trouble of changing back.

    If you really want to do something different with the shields maybe give him a chance to shock with his heavy at the expense of one shield but as I said, a tweak to the mechanics of his heavy aside, I am okay with his kit as is.
  • VoltronVoltron Posts: 772
    best buff for Rhinox.. give him a timer for his shield so we can see when it's coming back :p
  • KillMasterCKillMasterC Posts: 2,785
    That's more of a bug fix yet I support it.
    Voltron wrote: »
    best buff for Rhinox.. give him a timer for his shield so we can see when it's coming back :p
  • KillMasterCKillMasterC Posts: 2,785
    That's more of a bug fix yet I support it.
    Voltron wrote: »
    best buff for Rhinox.. give him a timer for his shield so we can see when it's coming back :p
  • Red_EyesRed_Eyes Posts: 884
    Voltron wrote: »
    best buff for Rhinox.. give him a timer for his shield so we can see when it's coming back :p

    Yeah, that would help.
  • XaosPrimeXaosPrime Posts: 39
    I love Rhinox, but he does need a buff.

    I think his sig is key. Maybe being able to restore or add shield buffs when landing a melee hit on a Power Locked enemy? Or if not restoring shields, maybe draining energy from shocked or power locked bots when landing a melee or heavy attack?
  • Starkiller7Starkiller7 Posts: 201
    Just fixing his heavy would be good
  • I love Rhinox as he stands out amongst the Tech's with his combination of power controlling abilities and damaging abilities such as Bleed and Melee Damage. However, his heavy needs some fixing.

    I really like your suggestions to make his heavy more accessible. However, I'm not a fan of taking away the Melee Damage. Sure, it's not the most known part of his kit, but it's the only way he can chuck out some good damage.

    So, I kind of took your Unstoppable idea and twisted it around a bit.
    Perhaps give him a chance to go Unstoppable on his Heavy based on the amount of Shields that he has.
    Like this:

    6 Shields- 100%
    5 Shields- 83%
    4 Shields- 66%
    3 Shields- 49%
    2 Shields-32%
    1 Shield-15%

    It's a way to preserve yourself from getting countered but the use would be limited if you can't keep his Shields up. Perhaps the only problem this presents is that it makes Rhinox too reliant on his Shields. Thoughts?
  • ManthroManthro Posts: 2,733
    edited August 28
    I love Rhinox as he stands out amongst the Tech's with his combination of power controlling abilities and damaging abilities such as Bleed and Melee Damage. However, his heavy needs some fixing.

    I really like your suggestions to make his heavy more accessible. However, I'm not a fan of taking away the Melee Damage. Sure, it's not the most known part of his kit, but it's the only way he can chuck out some good damage.

    So, I kind of took your Unstoppable idea and twisted it around a bit.
    Perhaps give him a chance to go Unstoppable on his Heavy based on the amount of Shields that he has.
    Like this:

    6 Shields- 100%
    5 Shields- 83%
    4 Shields- 66%
    3 Shields- 49%
    2 Shields-32%
    1 Shield-15%

    It's a way to preserve yourself from getting countered but the use would be limited if you can't keep his Shields up. Perhaps the only problem this presents is that it makes Rhinox too reliant on his Shields. Thoughts?


    I like this idea. Rewards perfect play, forces you to gamble if you get hit.

    It also ensures that you can't intentionally spam heavy attacks just to trigger unstoppable with the goal of eating one counterpunch in order to chain unlimited heavy/unstoppable combos together, which would be game breaking.
  • 小龙女小龙女 Posts: 640
    edited August 28
    Unstoppable is not an idea I particularly like. Unstoppable u still take damage. If u miss a heavy opponent hit back, even if you have unstoppable, getting hit once will be massive damage in 140 or 200 in future

    Btw, that hit can be regular hit, critical, heavy, special, range(range shock?). U don’t want to get hit ever.

    Imagine getting hit along with a debuff effects like shock bleed acid....along with double debuff duration mod

    Or just imagine u get hit by tronus special 1/2 with offense relic or galvatron special 1 under unstoppable. And good luck getting hit by g1 bee, and bludgeon or mv sp1

    U will still wish u never picked rhinox
  • 小龙女 wrote: »
    Unstoppable is not an idea I particularly like. Unstoppable u still take damage. If u miss a heavy opponent hit back, even if you have unstoppable, getting hit once will be massive damage in 140 or 200 in future

    Btw, that hit can be regular hit, critical, heavy, special, range(range shock?). U don’t want to get hit ever.

    Imagine getting hit along with a debuff effects like shock bleed acid....along with double debuff duration mod

    Or just imagine u get hit by tronus special 2 or galvatron special 1 under unstoppable

    That's why Rhinox's Shields are.. well, Shields. They cap the damage at 60%, preventing devastating damage.
    Galvatron SP1/2 and Tronus SP1 are no problem, coming from someone that actually plays him in AM. Tronus's SP2 is a pain for everyone though... especially with Preservation.
    And those same Shields are meant to decrease Burn and Shock damage and that's when you don't consider him being on a Beast Purifier team.
  • 小龙女小龙女 Posts: 640
    edited August 28
    Let’s say bee or bludgeon regular melee hits for 40k per punch. Crits at 80k. (Before armor damage deduction)

    60% reduces that to 24k and 48k. (Before armor damage deduction) Ur rank 5 rhinox with unstoppable will be almost dead with just one punch
  • Hijacker2531Hijacker2531 Posts: 524
    小龙女 wrote: »
    Let’s say bee or bludgeon regular melee hits for 40k per punch. Crits at 80k. (Before armor damage deduction)

    60% reduces that to 24k and 48k. (Before armor damage deduction) Ur rank 5 rhinox with unstoppable will be almost dead with just one punch

    Not every single player plays at max level AM for God's sake. You have to realize that this game is not tailor-made to the players who play end-game stuff. And also, it's 60% percent of their attack. That would mean if Blud's attack is 20k, the max damage he can do with one of his crits on the shield would be limited 12k. Still a lot, but that halves and quarters your earlier statistics.
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